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Thread: how flat is flat-nose for tube mag?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    how flat is flat-nose for tube mag?

    Problem: I ordered a flat nose mold for my 1895 marlin, and when I received it the flat part of the bullet was somewhat small. (about 1 hundreth smaller than the primer pocket). Will this mold work as-is, or do I need to enlarge the flat?

    Any help would be much appreciated.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    LUBEDUDE's Avatar
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    FWIW - had a similar concern for a RNFP bullet that had a significantlly less flat area than the primers of of the intended. The rounds would be used in lever action rifles.

    For a test a freind and me placed an empty case with live primer only in a vice with the primer facing up.
    We held a bullet in a pair of vice grips and placed it on top of the primer.

    We each wore gloves, ear plugs, and protective eyewear.

    While one held the bullet, the other hit it forcefully with a two pound sledgehammer to try to ignite the primer.

    No luck.

    The pirmer(s) were deformed somewhat.

    We did this to about 8-10 primers. Not what you would consider scientific enough to do a statisical analysis, but good enough for us.

    We used the softest primers out there - Federal pistol.

    Good Luck

    LubeDude

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


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    I once read that the meplat had to be bigger in diameter than the primer....but, Reminton Cor-Loks are sure smaller than a large rifle primer and Remington makes a ton of them and it don't seem to bother them or they'd "lawyer proof" that bullet. Just so it's not a sharp nosed spiter and I think you'll be all right. IMO, anything over two in the mag will probably droop down and not contact the primer anyway./beagle
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  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    I've been shooting, casting and handloading for my M94 Winchester since the early 1960's and have been reading about the supposed danger of pointed bullets setting off the primer in front of 'em since then as well. In the case of military FMJ spitzer bullets, I can see a possibility, but with exposed lead Round Nose and Flat Nose projectiles, no problem.

    Rest assured if there was ever a spontaneous detonation from a bullet contacting a primer in a tube magazine, we'd have heard about it.

    What we do hear about is difficulties getting primers to detonate when we want 'em to. How many posts and articles have you read where the writer laments his plight because he can't get the damn things to pop when he wants as to how many regarding the primer that went off in the magazine? What we're discussing is a non-problem.

    Gerry N.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by victor View Post
    Problem: I ordered a flat nose mold for my 1895 marlin, and when I received it the flat part of the bullet was somewhat small. (about 1 hundreth smaller than the primer pocket). Will this mold work as-is, or do I need to enlarge the flat?

    Any help would be much appreciated.


    Hear is my idea .

    Before the ammo crazies started , I bought a Winny & a Marlin .30-30 .

    I added up the cost of brass and all the components . If my math was close to accurate , I could by the $ 10 a box cheap Federal 170 grain JSP ammo for almost what the components would cost . And the rifles seems to like this cheap ammo .

    Bow this ammo is loaded with round nose ( not flat point ) soft point J******* bullets .

    I bet Federal has sold this ammo by the millions ? Do you think Federal's lawyers would let them do this if the round nose bullets were a danger ? I think not .

    I got my hands on some RN cast bullets for .30-30 , that I now load . Am I worried , no .

    Same for my .45-70 , . 44 , .45 LC & .357 lever guns .

    God bless
    Wyr

  6. #6
    Boolit Master August's Avatar
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    Magazine chain fires are rare. However, they have happened, they can happen, and they will happen in the future. We see a report of this about every year, or two.

    Some time back, some folks started using 45/70 cases that were made for small rifle primers so that heavy recoiling loads could be even more safe.
    That I could be wrong is an eventuality that has not escaped me. I just painted the pictures as I saw them. I do not know how to do anything else. (Saint Elmer, 1955)

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    A friend tried a similar experiment using a plastic tube centered over the primer and droping bullets with different points through the tube to impact the primer. He also studied the effects using magnification to try and find out which bullet caused the dent most likely to fire the cartridge. He was never able to set off a primer but some of the bullet noses caused enough deformation of the primer surface to cause concern. I've often heard of this phenomenon but have not actually observed it myself. From what I've been able to determine it most often happens with "J" word bullets with very pointed noses. It MAY be that lead being much softer than gliding metal deforms on impact dissipating some of the energy but I'm not enough of an engineer to say. Suffice it to say I will not be loading any jacketed spitzers in my Marlin.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks for all the help

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    Boolit Buddy muskeg13's Avatar
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    I had 6 rounds go off at once in the the mag tube of a .44 Mag M92 Puma. They were soft lead flat nose with very wide metplats. I lost a tooth and had a 3/4" hole punched in my cheek and upper lip caused by the magazine plug. It can and does happen. Now I don't use Federal large pistol primers and use the slowest burning powders available when loading rifles with magazine tubes.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy muskeg13's Avatar
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    I can see a possibility, but with exposed lead Round Nose and Flat Nose projectiles, no problem.
    Think again.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails magazine tube and cartridge fragments 001.jpg   magazine tube and cartridge fragments 005.jpg   magazine tube and cartridge fragments 008.jpg   magazine tube and cartridge fragments 010.jpg  

  11. #11
    Boolit Master



    Charlie Sometimes's Avatar
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    In a rifle magazine tube the cartridges lay horizontal, but inclined (tip down) due to the rim and case taper- a 30-30 more so than a 45 Colt, or a 45-70.
    A posibility exists that the edges of a particular meplat design would align with a primer, and hard boolits would be more dangerous in that condition than soft, wouldn't it?

    Recoil places a lot of mass into motion (backward and forward) in a full magazine of any caliber- that angle would make all the difference, and possibly is the reason for why it does or does not happen more often.
    USMC 1980-1985

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    Boolit Buddy Lively Boy's Avatar
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    oh man that looks rough

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks for your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by muskeg13 View Post
    I had 6 rounds go off at once in the the mag tube of a .44 Mag M92 Puma. They were soft lead flat nose with very wide metplats. I lost a tooth and had a 3/4" hole punched in my cheek and upper lip caused by the magazine plug. It can and does happen. Now I don't use Federal large pistol primers and use the slowest burning powders available when loading rifles with magazine tubes.
    People sometimes tell me they dont own guns because guns are too expensive. I tell them guns dont cost anything. They are essentially another form of currency.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master jlchucker's Avatar
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    Remington Corelocts, for the 30-30 and 35 Remington, at least, are round nose with no flat spot. They've been around for nearly a century, and I don't recall ever seeing where anyone had a problem with shooting these out of a tubular magazine. If this was a real concern, I doubt if Remington or its parent companies over the years would have exposed themselves to the potential liability.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master



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    Lightbulb Thinking again......

    Hey, I just had a thought!

    I've got a clear tube that a TC ramrod came in, of the approximate size of a magazine tube on a lever action rifle.

    Tomorrow, I am going to take several of my dummy cartridges and place them in it and take a picture to see what kind of nose-to-primer alignment is there.

    For the most part, I shoot very wide meplats on my boolits, so there might not be much to see, but I do have 30-30, 375 Win, and 45-70 examples.

    I want to see what this looks like- might be interesting. I'll see if I can place them under spring pressure of some kind, too, to simulate magazine conditions.

    Will post again tomorrow.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Baron von Trollwhack's Avatar
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    I'd pay 10$ to see a verified report of a mag tube explosion, something like court testimomy, affadavit, or similar. BvT
    Every lawbreaker we allow into our nation, or tolerate in our citizen population leads to the further escalation of law breaking of all kinds and acceptance of evil.
    Since almost all aspects of our cultural existence are LIBERAL in most states, this means that the nation is on a trajectory to dissolution by the burden of toleration and acceptance of LAWBREAKING as a norm, a trajectory back to the dark ages of history.

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  17. #17
    Boolit Master on Heaven's Range
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    I dunno....Muskeg13s post may not be court testimony but I don't think I would dismiss those photos so easily!
    "HMMMM.........It wasn't spos'ta do THAT!"

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Sometimes View Post
    Hey, I just had a thought!

    I've got a clear tube that a TC ramrod came in, of the approximate size of a magazine tube on a lever action rifle.

    Tomorrow, I am going to take several of my dummy cartridges and place them in it and take a picture to see what kind of nose-to-primer alignment is there.

    For the most part, I shoot very wide meplats on my boolits, so there might not be much to see, but I do have 30-30, 375 Win, and 45-70 examples.

    I want to see what this looks like- might be interesting. I'll see if I can place them under spring pressure of some kind, too, to simulate magazine conditions.

    Will post again tomorrow.
    An excellent idea.

    For best simulation, have the ID of the test tube close to the same as the real thing. Same thing with the spring tension. Try it with varying number of rounds, too.
    Even better yet, rig it in a slide of some sort to duplicate recoil and see if the nose position on any of the cartridges shifts from the original position. Laying the tube in a v-block and smacking the end with a lightweight hammer oughta do it.

    Obviously all experimentation to be done with dummy cartridges.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Rifle Mag article

    Several years ago there was a write up in Rifle or Handloader magazine on tube explosions. As I recall, which is suspect do to my bad recaller, the tube would fail only with fast pistol powders and pistol primers. I will see if I can dig up the article.

    regards

    Jim
    ...Praise Him all creatures here below...

  20. #20
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    Exclamation "Magazine Tube" alignment photos

    Here's the best I could do. Various cartridges- 45 Colt, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 375 Win, 30-30 Win, even 45 ACP for straight wall, lay-flat comparison. There are two RN in the mix- a 45 ACP, and a 45 Colt, and a 38 Spl WC in there, too.
    You can see what would cover some primers (if they were there!), and what doesn't, and what dead centers a primer (RN's go into the large primer pockets!) in the way they lay in the tube. There are large and medium meplats otherwise.
    You can see why the 30-30 factory RN's might not hit a primer as easily- they lay way down in the tube.
    While doing this, I happen to think that a weak magazine spring would allow the cartridges to move during recoil more than a strong one, or one with a full tube. Maybe that is what happened to Muskeg13's rifle. Maybe a high primer, too? Whatever happened, everything came together to go bang in the wrong places.















    Last edited by Charlie Sometimes; 02-01-2010 at 11:11 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check