Model 96 Swedish Mauser Accident

[lefty o]

A regular Sherlock Holmes among the deplorables !

arent you just a ray of sunshine. if you werent so abrasive, maybe you wouldnt have been banned.

[kmrra]

Well being relatively new to this site and only recently been real active, and this really doesnt have anything to do with the subject at hand .... I have always wondered how and why people get BANNED on here, ..and after reading most of the post on this thread , my question was answered, because I see someone got Banned today , unless you can still post after being banned ?....anyway Guys carry on , one of my questions was answered.

[runfiverun]

you guy's need to get off tomme about this.
if he called and was told what he reported you all should also call and talk to the technician,
not to him about what was said.

[Artful]

If one person's word was good enough to prove hearsay then we'd just take a dixie cup full of Jim Jones-Gibson Grape.

I'm sorry what is Jim Jones-Gibson Grape?

And yes I have seen articles in NRA and Handloader
magazines showing experimentation of ringing chambers
and destruction of rifles by using incorrect powder
in small quantity in large cases.

[Multigunner]

Well since propellant manufacturers know that SEE does in fact exist and have taken steps to attempt to prevent their products from being susceptible to SEE, at least as long as reloaders heed their warnings about reduced charges in certain types of cartridges coupled with light weight smaller bore projectiles I figure those who continue to deny that fact can only bring harm to the least well read newbies to reloading. Its sad that those who visit sites such as this looking to learn how to safely reload for their rifles or handguns might one day suffer due to assuming that SEE is a myth.

SEE is ultra rare precisely because propellant manufacturers and those who publish reloading manuals know what can happen if the phenomena were to be ignored.
Hopefully those new to reloading will have learned that not every safety concern is a myth.

I'm reminded of an article written many years ago by a fellow who claimed that no shark had ever attacked a human. That all reported shark attacks were cases of other fish like barracuda being mistaken for sharks. In those days there were no films of shark attacks to prove him wrong, if you ignored completely the hundreds of eye witness accounts going back centuries.
Then we have the tree huggers claiming wolves never attack humans. All you have to do to believe that is to ignore the eye witness accounts and autopsy results of victims of such attacks.
Some people are simply wrongheaded. I suspect that some actually hope someone will be injured because they believe their spurious claims.

[jonp]

I'm sorry what is Jim Jones-Gibson Grape?

And yes I have seen articles in NRA and Handloader
magazines showing experimentation of ringing chambers
and destruction of rifles by using incorrect powder
in small quantity in large cases.

Poison Kool Aid

Wrong powder can blow up a gun as everybody knows. I have read much on SEE and it seems to be a theory, something found in a few experiments in a lab but not proven outside of it. Nothing wrong with paying attention to something that can theoretically happen.

[jonp]

SEE Secondary Explosion Effect. This is a common occurrence with the 6.5 Swede. The long throat is what contributes to this happening.

Are you sure this is a correct statement? This looks more like either a double charge or just to large a charge for an old rifle. There are cautions about loads for modern commercial Swedes and military ones.

[tomme boy]

Are you sure this is a correct statement? This looks more like either a double charge or just to large a charge for an old rifle. There are cautions about loads for modern commercial Swedes and military ones.

If you read right before that I said that there was no way that 18grs of 2400 did that. Meaning it was a double charge. And have said it over and over again. So has Larry.

Larry is a stand up guy that will help you if you listen. So will a bunch of others here. But to refuse anything a person says or tries to say without an ounce of consideration is how a person can get hurt. I can also bet that most companies will not post data on how to do this because of the liability factor. Can you just imagine one of them saying that if you took a 6.5 Sweede and used a 120 gr bullet and used H4350 at XXX.XX amount of powder you will recreate a SEE. You know someone out there will try it. So they give a generic warning to not reduce powder under the loads they list.

Yes I was the problem child that brought up this whole mess. But the Sweede is a Cartridge that is spoken of more often about the SEE. But you are starting to hear as was mentioned more than once that the 243 is one of the easiest for the powder companies to make it happen. But I am through trying to explain it.

I sent out emails to everyone of the powder companies and the all famous HP White that a certain someone was saying that would know about this and would be the end all for this. But HODGDON was the only one that replied. I have emailed them before about different things and they have always got back to me. That says a lot to me. It is also the reason I use about all Hodgdon powders. The only other powder I use anymore is the 2400 that is mentioned in the OP. And in a cartridge that has a large capacity. The 7.62x54R. But that is another story.

[tomme boy]

Oh and JonP.

L'Chayim

[Jailer]

you guy's need to get off tomme about this.
if he called and was told what he reported you all should also call and talk to the technician,
not to him about what was said.

So we arent allowed to discuss things, on a discussion forum, unless we agree with whats posted? And for the record i never questioned his phone call, only his assertion that a small percentage point conclusively proved his hypothesis.

[jonp]

Im not questioning you or larrys opinion just that im not convinced that SEE happens outside of controlled experiments designed to make it happen which is fine. Manu's commonly test to extremes to try and find flaws or theoretical failures that "might" happen given a certain set of conditions. Its why you see products with silly warnings on them. It seems to me that there are far more likely reasons a firearm would suffer a catistrophic failure than an ultra rare event like SEE

However, i was more pointing towards your "well known in the 6.5x55 due to the long throat" part. Im not aware of that being stated elsewhere.

And thank you. L'Chayim to you and yours

[Electric88]

So we arent allowed to discuss things, on a discussion forum, unless we agree with whats posted? And for the record i never questioned his phone call, only his assertion that a small percentage point conclusively proved his hypothesis.

Circling around the same point or post again and again isn't discussion. It's beating a dead horse.

[Larry Gibson]

I was present on the Puyallup, Wa rifle range several years back when one of the military rifle match shooter's had an S.E.E. in his M96 Swede 6.5x55. He was using Sierra 107 gr MKs over a reduced charge of H4831 powder. Event occurred on the 4th shot from a clean barrel. He related there was a very distinct "click" followed immediately by the boom.......like a very quick hang fire.

Larry Gibson

[9w1911]

There are beliefs and then there is experience, when it comes to experience I will side with Larry every time.

[Artful]

Im not questioning you or larrys opinion just that im not convinced that SEE happens outside of controlled experiments designed to make it happen which is fine. Manu's commonly test to extremes to try and find flaws or theoretical failures that "might" happen given a certain set of conditions.

Wait - What? - If Manufactures put in x number of grains of powder y to test for SEE and find it in the lab and I put the same x number of grains of powder y in my reloads and my gun blows up then it's NOT SEE because why?

[Artful]

Poison Kool Aid

Your suggesting that NoAngel is saying some of us should partake of Poison?

[Larry Gibson]

jonp

"Im not questioning you or larrys opinion just that im not convinced that SEE happens outside of controlled experiments designed to make it happen which is fine. Manu's commonly test to extremes to try and find flaws or theoretical failures that "might" happen given a certain set of conditions."

Please bear in mind here I am not trying to ruffle your feathers or argue with you. I'm just pointing out something to clarify an obvious misunderstanding you and others apparently have. What I have posted is not based on my "opinion", it is based on the evidence found during the testing as reported in the earlier posted Handloader article. Prior to that I also had pretty much the same thoughts on the subject as all the old theories expounded about. However, here in the Handloader article was a test of production ammunition off the line in a readily available rifle. It was not "of controlled experiments designed to make it happen". The testing was conducted because that "lot" of factory produced and distributed ammunition of which there were verified reports of rifles damaged using that ammunition apparently had something wrong with it. Subsequent to that test that lot and others loaded with that powder of 6.5x55 factory ammunition were recalled.

I was never involved in the testing, with the article or the magazine (other than as a subscriber) and the results have absolutely nothing to do with my "opinion". After reading the article, which made sense, I began to investigate new reports of S.E.E. and also to compare my experiences. Sure enough most all the variables related to in the article along with same sequence of firing before the event occurred in past and recently occurred S.E.E. events. I also found that such events are rare compared to events caused by reloader and/or shooter error (such as the probable double charge in the example that started this thread).

Aparently you did not read nor pay close attention to the facts presented in the Handloader article(?) as evidenced by your statement; "However, i was more pointing towards your "well known in the 6.5x55 due to the long throat" part. Im not aware of that being stated elsewhere."

Had you read the Handloader article you would have found this relating to the long throat and an explanation of how it is a "main culprit". It contains the explanation of what happens.

(as quoted from the afore posted Handloader article)

"As I said, there are a number of variables at work here, but the main culprit is a very long leade or throat erosion. It takes relatively little pressure to eject the bullet from the cartridge case (de-bullet), which produces a significant increase in volume. Unless the rate of gas production is fast enough to keep up with the increase in volume, pressure must drop. The simple equation is PIVI=P2V' where P =pressure and V = volume. It is helpful in considering the phenomena reported here to view the rifle barrel and chamber as a cylinder whose volume is determined by the position of the bullet at any given point in time. If the bullet is moving, the volume is continuously increasing until the bullet exits the barrel.

If P2 is at or below the pressure required to keep the bullet moving it must stop. Then we run into our old friend inertia. Bodies at rest tend to remain at rest, but all the powder burning behind the resting bullet doesn't know about that. It keeps burning and pressure rises. Sometimes we get lucky and the bullet starts to move and relieve some of that pressure, but in a worst case of a rough bore and/or soft bullet it doesn't, and pressure continues to build until something else lets go. Most of the time this will occur around the primer pocket and gas will be released through the flash hole, but we're talking about events that are taking place quickly (milliseconds); and if pressure rises at a rate faster than it is being relieved, a catastrophic failure is inevitable ".

Hopefully this provides an explanation on the matter for you.

Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

Larry, Could neck tension have something to do with this? If the neck has little to no tension, the bullet would likely be able to jump out very easy. Something I forgot to ask about.

[Larry Gibson]

Tomme

Neck tension or the lack of or minimal could very well be a contributing factor.

Larry Gibson

[Swede 45]

SEE in 6.5x55 M96 with slow burning powder and a light bullet and probably light necktension..

Been there, done that!

Swede.