Martini ,,, Now and then

[BigEyeBob]

I did some refinishing on the 222R martin I bought a few weeks ago and also added a 8 x 42 scope to the outfit .
I'm planning on a restock at a later date but wanted to practice some more with my hand rubbed oil finish technique.
I'm pretty please with the end result .
I cut the fore end down from the chunky target type to a more pleasing slimmer style with a Schnabel tip .
I'm thinking of getting a stock from Treebone Woodcarving in the US as I like thier flat cheek piece style of stock .
I,m not overly crazy about the pistol grip on the current stock ,looks like a cuban boot heel , but it will do until I get some new wood.

I don't know what the timber is , I was told by the previous owner it was a tree he cut down on his grandfathers property and he made the stock and fore end from it .
I think it's ironbark or bloodwood both Australian natives , both very dense and heavy hard woods that have the properties of steel ,
I know it took ages for the timber to absorb any oil , and I wrecked a good cabinet makers rasp hacking down the fore end.
I was going to checker the pistol grip and fore end but decided not to torture my checkering tools on that wood

Any way I thought I would share some then and now pics.

[Hooker53]

Great job Big Eye. That must be some mighty hard wood to wreck a rasp like that. What Kind of oil are you using? I'm at the present, cutting out some rare tropical wood inlays for a gun and like Gabon ebony or Rosewood, Reg Tru-oil takes for ever to dry. IV found out in most cases with pure heart wood Ebony, I'm better off to just buff it with 600 and let it go. Looks right good buffed out anyway. When I used oil on it, it looked more like black plastic then wood with grain. Keep up the good work. I'll take that stock if you don't want it!! Ha. Ha.

Roy
Hooker53

[downunderrunner]

beautiful old girl there brother! that timber looks like ironbark to me, although, the quilting in the grain is atypical for ironbark, and more common in old grown redgum, also incredibly hard stuff!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is actually a very nice-looking piece of wood, which I would be reluctant to part with. tsHardness doesn't necessarily come with resistance to splitting, but it usually does, and that wood might prevent the bugbear of Martinis, wood splitting away at the top of the butt socket. If you do want to restock, though, the Martinis, large or small, are among the easiest to do yourself. The main thing is to make sure that the butt, through wood or epoxy, exerts pressure on the inside front of the socket, not just the edges. This picture is my stock-drilling... er... thing. It follows the usual rule with holes, which is that you should make your hole first, and then the outside around it.

Attachment 150956

I know a lot Australian woods were evaluated as potential substitutes for Lee-Enfield stocks, and mostly found to some degree unsatisfactory. But that was before tungsten carbide woodworking cutters, and lots of forms of unsatisfactory don't apply once you have got your stock, and someone else had to do the suffering for it. I believe there are, or used to be, carbide checkering tools, but I remember shuddering at the price, as they were only economical for series production. I'd leave it the way it is, but if you feel you need something you could do stippled panels like we sometimes see on target rifles, or inlay panels of more easily checkerable wood.

I'm currently dabbling in ramshorn handled walking-sticks, principally because a win certificate from the local cattle show may be the only way to get my 88-year-old mother in law to use one. I was surprised by just how much faster than rasps and yet controllable tungsten carbide burrs could be, and your wood wouldn't harm them.

Yes, it's a pity about the old boot, and the white spacers, but it isn't disastrous. Before restocking I would spend a bit of time with pencil and paper, and see if I couldn't remodel that pistol grip. There is no good reason why a pistol grip cap in a contrasting wood or horn shouldn't be a bit thicker at the front than the rear. I've done that in bronze when I wanted to build weight into a .300H&H which would still look like a sporting rifle. It is unlikely that they rehardened the lever after bending it (they didn't need to), so it could be bent into slightly less of a curve, to get back to where the pistol grip cap comes a fraction lower down.

I once used a half inch ball-shaped tungsten carbide burr to shape the end of the lever, and brazed on a half-inch soft steel ball (sold on eBay for, I believe, use in catapults.) A ball bearing would surely work as well, but I would use acid to remove the polish first. Or you could use a little steel ring, which was sometimes used to attach a looped thong for operation by freezing hands, although I suppose that is a rare requirement in Australia.

[downunderrunner]

actually, the ring idea i have seen down here, but on a large frame martini in .450 BPE, used by a buff hunter/guide on his "insurance" rifle, it was set up so that as he was retrieving the next round from his left bicep "ready" loops on his shirt, the action was opened and the empty ejected due to a lanyard looped around his right wrist, the old boy could run that girl faster than i could the SMLE i had at the time!

[BigEyeBob]

That is actually a very nice-looking piece of wood, which I would be reluctant to part with. tsHardness doesn't necessarily come with resistance to splitting, but it usually does, and that wood might prevent the bugbear of Martinis, wood splitting away at the top of the butt socket. If you do want to restock, though, the Martinis, large or small, are among the easiest to do yourself. The main thing is to make sure that the butt, through wood or epoxy, exerts pressure on the inside front of the socket, not just the edges. This picture is my stock-drilling... er... thing. It follows the usual rule with holes, which is that you should make your hole first, and then the outside around it.

Attachment 150956

I know a lot Australian woods were evaluated as potential substitutes for Lee-Enfield stocks, and mostly found to some degree unsatisfactory. But that was before tungsten carbide woodworking cutters, and lots of forms of unsatisfactory don't apply once you have got your stock, and someone else had to do the suffering for it. I believe there are, or used to be, carbide checkering tools, but I remember shuddering at the price, as they were only economical for series production. I'd leave it the way it is, but if you feel you need something you could do stippled panels like we sometimes see on target rifles, or inlay panels of more easily checkerable wood.

I'm currently dabbling in ramshorn handled walking-sticks, principally because a win certificate from the local cattle show may be the only way to get my 88-year-old mother in law to use one. I was surprised by just how much faster than rasps and yet controllable tungsten carbide burrs could be, and your wood wouldn't harm them.

Yes, it's a pity about the old boot, and the white spacers, but it isn't disastrous. Before restocking I would spend a bit of time with pencil and paper, and see if I couldn't remodel that pistol grip. There is no good reason why a pistol grip cap in a contrasting wood or horn shouldn't be a bit thicker at the front than the rear. I've done that in bronze when I wanted to build weight into a .300H&H which would still look like a sporting rifle. It is unlikely that they rehardened the lever after bending it (they didn't need to), so it could be bent into slightly less of a curve, to get back to where the pistol grip cap comes a fraction lower down.

I once used a half inch ball-shaped tungsten carbide burr to shape the end of the lever, and brazed on a half-inch soft steel ball (sold on eBay for, I believe, use in catapults.) A ball bearing would surely work as well, but I would use acid to remove the polish first. Or you could use a little steel ring, which was sometimes used to attach a looped thong for operation by freezing hands, although I suppose that is a rare requirement in Australia.

I will keep the stock when I I replace it .I'm actually impressed with the fellow who made the stock , he did a good job for some one who had never done anything of that nature before. Fit of the tenon into the butt socket was **** as is the fit of the fore end into the front of the action , but its usable.
The white spacers are plastic from a 4 litre ice cream container , the black material is water buffalo horn .I'm not a fan of white spacers on any rifle ,but left them there to maintain the stock length , Actually the stock fits me pretty well and the comb is right for height as far as the scope goes.
I prefer horn or a steel butt plate , or a Silvers red recoil pad on big caliber rifles
I've been experimenting with buffalo horn for grip caps and have successfully made a couple from it .I made one to go onto my 96 Mauser sporter.
I'm still contemplating reshaping that boot heel but I want to shoot it so I may do it later. I have a couple of other small frame Martinis that may wear the old stock .A close a friend suggested a rounded pistol grip . like a shotgun grip , or Prince of Wales grip as Rigby referred to them ,and used on some of his Mauser rifles
I had to bed the stock tenon into the the butt socket as the fit was a shocker , the stock was loose and when I took the bolt out it had three 3/8" spring washers under the head. I made a brass spacer to take up the difference between the bolt head and the bottom of the hole in the stock .
Today I took the action out or the frame and noticed some marks on the rear of the action where the stock bolt had bottomed out when the previous owner had put the stock on.

The lever is another thing that is bugging me ,it's just been cut off and not finished properly so I am contemplating extending it by welding a piece on the end and doing some thing like a ball or hook to finish it , but Ill wait until I get the new stock and see how much I need to add and I may need to reshape it for a better profile for the new stock . I'm still looking for a virgin unmodified lever just in case some thing goes wrong ,if I cant get one Ill have a shot at making a new one all together.
When the lever is closed it has a large gap between the wood and its rear surface , I've pinched my right index finger twice in the exact same place causing a blood blister so Ill need to be careful closing the action until I can get the new wood fitted and the lever fitting that with less of a gap.
No freezing conditions at my end of Australia it rarely gets below 30C during any day of the year ,in fact today was 38C ,and it will get hotter until the monsoon starts , we can expect 40-43 over the next couple of months ,Maybe gloves to stop the lever from burning my hands.

I have used balls from bearings before , you just need to anneal them by heating red hot and burying them in a can of dry sand , after that they can be filed and drilled easily .
As far as chequering /checkering goes , I haven't ever attempted it , I bought a set of Dembart tools in 18 or 16LPI and need to practice some before I start scratching a real stock ,I'm studying Monte Kennedys' book at the moment and he explains how to roll your own cutters from drill rod ,which for me being a Fitter and Turner should be easy enough .

I've loaded a few rounds using Remington 50Gn hollow points ,and am keen to get out and have blast .
Picked up a box of 500 Hornady 50Gn Z Max the other day to see how they work on the Zombies .

Cheers
Kev.
.

[BigEyeBob]

Great job Big Eye. That must be some mighty hard wood to wreck a rasp like that. What Kind of oil are you using? I'm at the present, cutting out some rare tropical wood inlays for a gun and like Gabon ebony or Rosewood, Reg Tru-oil takes for ever to dry. IV found out in most cases with pure heart wood Ebony, I'm better off to just buff it with 600 and let it go. Looks right good buffed out anyway. When I used oil on it, it looked more like black plastic then wood with grain. Keep up the good work. I'll take that stock if you don't want it!! Ha. Ha.

Roy
Hooker53

My finishing oil is a mix of boiled linseed oil, a dash of gum turpentine and alkanet root . I start with raw linseed and heat it add the gum turps and alkanet and boil it for an hour or so then decant into a Bundaberg rum bottle and let it settle , then I strain it to remove most of the mud from the alkanet root .
I keep the mud and use it for a stock filler .The alkanet root gives that nice reddish colour that is so apparent on high quality English guns .
The colour of the oil changes from an eeerk purple to a nice rich dark blood red after a couple of months , I shake the bottles every time I think of it to keep it stirred .I have a few bottles of brew on the shelf , off different ages
The wood is sanded to 320 and wet a couple of times to raise the grain resanded with 320land let dry for a good day.Next day a good lathering of the oil mix applied and let sit for an hour or two .I wipe any excess off and leave it for a day .
The next day I wet sand the wood with 400 and some of the oil mix and some mud from the bottle this helps fills the open grain although on this wood it didn't need it as it is so dense and has no open grain at all.
I then give it a good couple of hours and then wipe it off across the grain with a piece of old hessian bag and let dry.
Next day a quick going over with some 400 wet and dry and a wipe off with some gum turpentine and left until the next day.
Then once a day, every day I dip a finger tip into my oil concoction and rub the oil into the wood with the heel of my hand , so it gets hot and keep rubbing with small amounts of oil creating heat so the oil polymerizes and dries .
After 7 or 8 days If I have a nice finish with a slight gloss I call it quits and leave it to harden for a few days.
That's about it , the finish is waterproof and is easily touched up.
On this stock I did some thing different , I applied a couple of coats of natural Carnuba wax and buffed it out after drying between applications.

Kev.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

actually, the ring idea i have seen down here, but on a large frame martini in .450 BPE, used by a buff hunter/guide on his "insurance" rifle, it was set up so that as he was retrieving the next round from his left bicep "ready" loops on his shirt, the action was opened and the empty ejected due to a lanyard looped around his right wrist, the old boy could run that girl faster than i could the SMLE i had at the time!

Yes, in the early days of the British Lee rifles it was reckoned that it was faster while the magazine lasted, but the Martini could at least equal its rate of continuous fire for longer periods - rather like an ejector double shotgun over a pump-action, in fact. I'm sure that there was at least a brief period, with the non-fouling .303 Martinis but before the Enfield charger guide, when it was true.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I had to bed the stock tenon into the the butt socket as the fit was a shocker , the stock was loose and when I took the bolt out it had three 3/8" spring washers under the head. I made a brass spacer to take up the difference between the bolt head and the bottom of the hole in the stock .

Then you were lucky, and that wood is definitely good stuff. I think it would have chipped anyway on a more heavily recoiling rifle. Any Martini can benefit from superglue impregnation of the end grain there, and when that is hardened, glass bedding. You have to wax the sides of the socket if you are to get the butt out again, since they can be undercut by age-old pitting there. But it is tight fit on the front that matters.

I believe a lot of Martini levers, large and small, are case-hardened, and you can get surface cracks which threaten to deepen, if you try to bend them while hard. Once annealed a little cold bending should be fine, and scratching with a needle point should tell you if that is the case.

I think a Cadet Martini should hold reliably in the closed position without the original locking of lever tip into a stock escutcheon. If not, you can use a coilspring and detent ball near the lever's axis, or a little stud in the rear of the lever, which engages with a notched metal runway in the front of the pistol grip.

I'm restoring a sporting Martini in .40-65, a chambering in which I have to keep it to preserve its antique status, totally uncontrolled to buy, own or import as long as it dates from 1939 or earlier. (It was a hard-won concession, and it would be rude not to derive as much advantage as possible.) I think I improved its appearance and reduced the chances of the dreaded Martini chip, by making the rear edge of the receiver concave on the 3in. diameter roller of my belt grinder.

[Tackleberry41]

I need to break down and make some sort of decent stock for my martini, original caliber. Bought 2 off Sportsman guide as it said 'may be missing parts' figured 2 rifles to have one, 1 was missing the sling. Didn't figure needed 2 long barreled ones, so cut one down to a carbine. Both stocks are pretty nasty.

[BigEyeBob]

Boyds have the original pattern straight stock available as a replacement but no fore end as far as I know. , not sure on quality as Ive never had one or used one,
but have heard good reports about thier products.
Treebone woodcarving have a few different styles available and fore ends .
Ive bought stuff from Sportsmans guide mainly tee shirts and hunting boots , but not guns or gun parts , too much hassle to import them in to Australia these days .
Dont toss the wood as it's probably English walnut. Some of the stocks I have seen cleaned up and the wood under the crud was amazingly pretty.
The guy who made the stock for mine tossed the original stock and fore end into the fireplace.

[Tackleberry41]

These are the Nepalese rifles, so doubt they will be anything spectacular like English Walnut. Sportsman guide has stuff every once in a while. It was a couple years ago they had the martinis.

[downunderrunner]

Bigeyebob, how is it to much trouble? just B709 form? not on dies, stocks, bolts, triggers, springs, barrel bands, blocks, actually, the only parts on a martini, that require a b709, are the reciever and barrel? too much BS paper, yes, but not really a hassle

[BCRider]

BEB, I hope you're boiling that concoction outdoors and well away from the house or anything else flammable. The old tyme historical writeups of finish makers are rampant with tales of explosions and fires from making boiled linseed oil and the varnish that was then made from that using the BLO as a base. The fumes it gives off while boiling are highly flammable. Sort of like having a propane or natural gas leak.

Other than that I have to say it looks very nice. I wonder though. If the wood is that hard is it not somewhat heavy to use for a set of wood stocks? Doesn't that make the overall rifle rather heavy?

It's also not uncommon to find that a lot of the tropical hardwoods have a high degree of abrasive buildup in the grain. I'm not sure what it is but silica comes to mind. It's not every wood and it's not even always in the harder woods. But those with this stuff in the "veins" does tend to be very hard on the cutting tools.

[BigEyeBob]

Bigeyebob, how is it to much trouble? just B709 form? not on dies, stocks, bolts, triggers, springs, barrel bands, blocks, actually, the only parts on a martini, that require a b709, are the reciever and barrel? too much BS paper, yes, but not really a hassle

Any time that I have to go to the local police station and pay (57.00 dollars here for a B709 and a PTA ) to get permission to buy some thing that I"m already licensed to own is a hassle .

[downunderrunner]

ah, the issue your having is caliber related then! lol, that's why i stick to their original chamberings, no pta, no registration, only a B709.............................

[BigEyeBob]

Not a calibre related problem at all . All ammunition and components need a B709 ,magazines springs ,actions and barrels and other gun parts included .
I wanted to purchase some brass cases from a company in the US ,I had to pay 57.00 to the local Police to get permission to import empty unformed brass for my 300Sherwood , a cartridge that is not even recognized on the NT Police list as a firearm cartridge .My 300Sherwoos is actually registered as a 300 Blackout , thats as close as the dumb **** coppers could get to my rifle on thier list . The NT Govt charge 57.00 AUD for processing a B709 , also charge the same amount for a PTA. I'm already licensed to own firearms , A& B Class so I don't see why I need to part with hard earned dollars every time I want to add another fire arm to my safe or import inert brass tube from overseas.
I see it as a money grab , absolutely has nothing to do with firearms safety or keeping firearms out of the wrong hands.

Fortunately I have good network of friends who share the same interest as myself , we managed to avoid the NT Police charge of 57 dollars for two of us and a friend in NSW did the purchasing and we got our cases NT police fee free .NSW dosen't charge for B709 processing ,well not at the moment , but when they get wind of what Victoria and Western Australia and the NT police are up to they probably will start .
WA charge 57 AUD for a visiting shooters permit , just revenue raising is all it is.

[BigEyeBob]

BC Rider ,
I use an electric element to heat my oil mix ,it's much safer than a open flame gas burner .
My workshop has a full length 3 m x 9 m annex down one side I do all my smelting and hot work out there , plenty of air movement provided by large industrial fans and natural breezes.

This particular rifle is heavy for its size , I haven't weighed it yet , I had intended to and will do it soon . I will compare it to my 310 which is also a sporter of similar size and has walnut furniture. The 222R has a very heavy barrel which adds to the weight and maybe a candidate for barrel fluting to shave some more weight

Yes some of the tropical hard woods do contain high concentrations of silica and its murder on wood working tools .
Ive replaced all of my Stanley plane blades with custom made D2 tool steel blades because of that . Still have a couple of block planes that need doing .
Chisels I haven't replaced because I have so many that I would need a big bank roll .
Generally I wouldn't use any of the native Australian timbers for stock work , apart from Queensland Maple and maybe Blackwood .
I have a Queensland Maple blank that Ive had for 40 years ,and I know its very hard because a friend carved a stock for his P14 some years back from a blank from the same slab and he said it was pure torture doing it with out a pantograph to copy a stock from ,It is a very attractive piece of timber with lots of fiddle back grain .
I have a good supply of African Mahogany bit Im not sure it would be good for gunstocks ,suffers from very stubborn grain patterns , I call it recirculating grain runs one way then turns back on itself , and is very susceptible tear out when planning and working it. Its not as hard as the Australian Natives , and is easier to work apart from the grain characteristics.

Kev

[downunderrunner]

ah, NT, gotcha, NSW here, laws are fairly different, dies, cases and such (just no primers or propellant don't need a b 709, and those bits that do, the paperwork don't cost a thing!

bloody thieving pricks the coppers are! so glad i don't have to deal with them

[BigEyeBob]

ah, NT, gotcha, NSW here, laws are fairly different, dies, cases and such (just no primers or propellant don't need a b 709, and those bits that do, the paperwork don't cost a thing!

bloody thieving pricks the coppers are! so glad i don't have to deal with them

I work hard to avoid thier BS