45-70 with other pistol powder beside Unique?

[karlrudin]

For that purpose I would suggest that you look at investing in a Collar Button mold as well. This was used for indoor range gallery shooting.

I was also thinking about using a light bullet for the recoil factor, but it the accuracy out to 100 yds on par with the heavier bullets. Like I said, only hunting paper, so energy and speed is not a concern. All the loads for my weapons is at the bottom of the charging table. As far as the Lyman die, yeah well that AIN'T in the budget right now, but thanks for the info.

[NavyVet1959]

I use Red Dot loading with the .45-70 since I have a lot of Alliant Promo (same as Red Dot by weight but not by volume).

From a practical matter though, with a single shot rifle like the H&R, you could develop a load with pretty much ANY powder out there -- anything from a fast pistol powder to a .50BMG or 20mm powder. The really slow powders might not be optimal, but you would get the bullet out of the barrel and it would work in a pinch. I stumbled across a page once where someone had ran the numbers on it as a lark awhile back with Quickload and although not a firebreather, it did go bang. Even with the cheapness of the surplus .50BMG and 20mm powders, you need so much of it, it's not as economical as the fast pistol powders.

Maybe someone with Quickload could run the numbers again and post the results?

[wquiles]

I have an H&R Handy in 45-70 and I am experimenting with two molds from Tom at Accurate: 46-355RG (352gr with my Alloy) and the 46-300DG (296gr with my Alloy) and they are very mild with Trailboss. These I ordered from Tom and come out of the mold at .460" and .461" respectively (my rifle's bore is about .4585"), and I size to .460" and tumble lube with Delux X-Lox. Right now my alloy is 2-to-1 Isotope lead ingots to Linotype, and on my Lee hardness tester they came at 14.3 air cooled, and 26 water cooled.

This top left and bottom left were 5x shot groups fired at 50 yards from the bench, with the 355RG behind 14gr Trailboss (middle target was the sighting of the new scope). Bottom right was the same bullet, also 5x shots but with 15gr Trailboss (aiming at the small black center area):





These two were with the 300DG behind 15gr Trailboss (aiming at the small black center area):



Low recoil, trapdoor level pressure, very high density, about 1100-1200fps (estimate based on QuickLoad), and accurate in my rifle.

[wquiles]

Maybe someone with Quickload could run the numbers again and post the results?

I have Quickload - if you tell me what powder I can run the numbers - no problem

[NavyVet1959]

I have Quickload - if you tell me what powder I can run the numbers - no problem

WC872 (a 20mm powder)
WC867 (a .50BMG powder)

I seem to remember that he ran the numbers with a full case of each powder. Not sure what that would be, but since the .45-70 held 70 gr of black powder, maybe try that?

I think that he was using a 405gr cast bullet for the calculations.

The original hypothesis was: "It's impossible to load enough .50 BMG or 20mm powder into a straight wall case like a .45-70 to actually damage the firearm".

As such, the idea was to use Quickload to calculate the pressure, velocity, etc for a case full of powder that was then slightly compressed when the bullet was seated at the max OAL for the caliber.

Some people were arguing that because the powder was for a .50 BMG or 20mm, it was more powerful and would blow up the firearm. Others said that it just would not burn completely since the pressure could not build due to it not being a bottleneck cartridge. I've experimented with those powders in handgun cartridges just to see what would happen and to say the least, it was rather uneventful (wouldn't even eject the brass).

[wquiles]

WC872 (a 20mm powder)
WC867 (a .50BMG powder)

I seem to remember that he ran the numbers with a full case of each powder. Not sure what that would be, but since the .45-70 held 70 gr of black powder, maybe try that?

I think that he was using a 405gr cast bullet for the calculations.

The original hypothesis was: "It's impossible to load enough .50 BMG or 20mm powder into a straight wall case like a .45-70 to actually damage the firearm".

As such, the idea was to use Quickload to calculate the pressure, velocity, etc for a case full of powder that was then slightly compressed when the bullet was seated at the max OAL for the caliber.

Some people were arguing that because the powder was for a .50 BMG or 20mm, it was more powerful and would blow up the firearm. Others said that it just would not burn completely since the pressure could not build due to it not being a bottleneck cartridge. I've experimented with those powders in handgun cartridges just to see what would happen and to say the least, it was rather uneventful (wouldn't even eject the brass).

I have a very recent copy of QL, Version 3.8, and I can't find either WC872 nor WC867. I did however have listed Hodgdon H870, US 869, and 50BMG powders. I am not responsible for any misuse of this data - just presenting here for a comparison.

This data is NOT for actual use - just for comparing powders.
At 100% load density, using a 405gr cast bullet, OAL=2.550", 20" barrel length:
H 50BMG = 50.59gr, 925 fps, 770 ft-lb, max pressure = 9263 psi, 24% of the powder burnt
H US 869 = 53.08gr, 908 fps, 742 ft-lb, max pressure = 9032 psi, 24.7% of the powder burnt
H H870 = 51.46gr, 927 fps, 773 ft-lb, max pressure = 8946 psi, 26.4% of the powder burnt

on the other extreme, just for comparison at also 100% load density:
IMR Trail Boss = 16.79gr, 1129 fps, 1146 ft-lb, max pressure = 28208 psi (!!!)


Again, the data above is NOT for actual use - just for comparing powders.

[NavyVet1959]

I have a very recent copy of QL, Version 3.8, and I can't find either WC872 nor WC867. I did however have listed Hodgdon H870, US 869, and 50BMG powders. I am not responsible for any misuse of this data - just presenting here for a comparison.

This data is NOT for actual use - just for comparing powders.
At 100% load density, using a 405gr cast bullet, OAL=2.550", 20" barrel length:
H 50BMG = 50.59gr, 925 fps, 770 ft-lb, max pressure = 9263 psi, 24% of the powder burnt
H US 869 = 53.08gr, 908 fps, 742 ft-lb, max pressure = 9032 psi, 24.7% of the powder burnt
H H870 = 51.46gr, 927 fps, 773 ft-lb, max pressure = 8946 psi, 26.4% of the powder burnt

on the other extreme, just for comparison at also 100% load density:
IMR Trail Boss = 16.79gr, 1129 fps, 1146 ft-lb, max pressure = 28208 psi (!!!)


Again, the data above is NOT for actual use - just for comparing powders.

So, Trail Boss is such a bulky powder that you can physically only get 16.79 gr of it in a .45-70 cartridge? Wow...

Looks like I did remember correctly then. It's basically impossible to reach a dangerous pressure level in a straight-walled case with the .50 BMG and 20mm powders. Looks like in straight-walled cases, it would even generate less pressure than black powder. This explains why the people who use it in .45-70 have a "kicker" load of a couple of grains loaded on top of the primer and then the rest of the case filled with the cannon powders.

Thanks for running the numbers...

[jethunter]

Winchester 800X is good too, similar to Unique.

[wquiles]

So, Trail Boss is such a bulky powder that you can physically only get 16.79 gr of it in a .45-70 cartridge? Wow...

Yes, extremely bulky. But for the modest velocity, the pressures are "relatively" high. I was shooting my own cast 300gr (296gr in my alloy) with 16gr Trailboss and QuickLoad predicted 18.8k PSI, and only giving me about 1231 fps out of my 20" barrel Handy. For comparison, 50gr IMR 3031 gives me 1714 fps at a lower 17.6k PSI. Or to put it in another way, I need 35.5gr of IMR 3031 to reach the same muzzle velocity, but only at 8.1k PSI. And their pressure curves are very distinct, with IMR giving you a wider 'pulse', which is why it "feels" more like a push and less of a kick.

TrailBoss is impossible to double load, very high load density (no fillers needed), but pressures tend to run higher than other low velocity loads. I read about it, but it was not only I got QuickLoad that I really learned about these differences.

Will