simple Hi-Tek coating

[Gremlin460]

The oven will be at 390-400, when I put the boolits in drops to 350 +- then it takes 10-12 minutes for it to get back to 390. so nice I skipped the 3rd coat.

All the good ovens seem to recover quite quickly , some not so much... Mine is a old house wall oven and does not recover that fast. As a work around I put 4 thick clay bricks on the bottom shelf. These act like heat soaks, they soak the temperature untill they themselves are a 200 degrees, I turn the oven on 30 mins before I want to set coating. When I open the door and close it after sliding in cold casts, the return to temp is 1/10th the time it used to take, as the bricks now release heat into the cooler oven.

I also removed the knob from the temp controler, so I dont get the urge to "tweak it".
Get a temp sensor in the middle of the oven and a digital readout, its the only way to really know whats going on. The digital temp meter will also indicate how fast the temperature recovers far better than a themometer.

Since using the bricks my oven take less than 4 mins to return to 203 from a door open/insert new tray/door close event that drops the temp to around 143 degrees.

[ItZaLLgooD]

I do have a multi-meter that I was using in my casting pot. The thermocouple is bad but I can get a new one. Never thought of it though. Thanks for the suggestion.

As far a the bricks go, another good suggestion. I would probably only have room for one or 2, but it would help the recovery of temperature.

[Avenger442]

Want to repeat something I said about the bricks in an earlier post, in case you missed it. If they have been outside you might want to cook them a while to get the moisture out. Mine steamed for about an hour the first time.

Gremlin 460 is right, it helps maintain temperature when loading and while cooking. I'm using a cheap yard sale convection oven with a brick in it. My .308 and .44 are passing tests all three coats. Putting about 3lb. of lead in the oven for right at 390 F (200 C) varies only 10 degrees either side with brick. 3lb was an earlier suggestion from one of the post.

This stuff is great. Loaded about 60 .308 for some accuracy test. Will be pushing them between 1700 and 2000 fps. From previous information, I'm expecting the lower end to be the most accurate. Will report back with photos, I hope, when done.

[ItZaLLgooD]

Want to repeat something I said about the bricks in an earlier post, in case you missed it. If they have been outside you might want to cook them a while to get the moisture out. Mine steamed for about an hour the first time.

Gremlin 460 is right, it helps maintain temperature when loading and while cooking. I'm using a cheap yard sale convection oven with a brick in it. My .308 and .44 are passing tests all three coats. Putting about 3lb. of lead in the oven for right at 390 F (200 C) varies only 10 degrees either side with brick. 3lb was an earlier suggestion from one of the post.

This stuff is great. Loaded about 60 .308 for some accuracy test. Will be pushing them between 1700 and 2000 fps. From previous information, I'm expecting the lower end to be the most accurate. Will report back with photos, I hope, when done.

Did you just use a regular brick or a fire brick?

[leadman]

I put crushed rock around 1 1/2" in diameter in my ovens and it works fine. Stole it from the front yard.

itza, straight isotope lead may be too soft for your use. Mine runs around 8 to 9 BHN. This is ok for the 45 but in my experience not for the 9mm or 40 S&W.
You can water quench the last coating and it should harden it up some. If that does not help buy some linotype off the Selling & Swapping board here and mix about a pound per 10 pounds of isotope and it should help, especially if you water quench. COWW and shot will also harden your lead and help with water quenching.

[ItZaLLgooD]

For some reason I thought the iso lead was harder than that. Live and learn. I will try the WC first. If need be I can get some lino to toughen it up.

[Avenger442]

Did you just use a regular brick or a fire brick?

Just a regular solid brick. Actually any brick, paver, or fire brick will do. You are just trying to put something in the oven to absorb (heat sink) the heat and store it. One of the earlier post said the best material would be a block of copper if you have one of those lying around.

[Ausglock]

Well. I did some bake time testing last night.
I had 200 9mm 120con bullets with one coat of the DRY-TEK powdered Red/copper mixed 20gms to 100mls of Acetone.
They were placed in a pre-warmed oven at 200deg C. 2 Bullets were removed starting at 10 minutes and then every minute up to 20 minutes.
This was to see at what point the coating would fail the smash test.

So after all the bullets were cooled, they were smashed. 1 of each was smashed on their side. The other was smashed top to bottom.
I expected them to start failing at the 13 minute mark. But... NONE FAILED!!!!!
Even the 20 minute bullets passed the smash test with flying colours!

I have now applied the second coat and will re-bake these for a further 20 minutes and use the same methodology for bullet sampling.

After taking to HI-TEK Joe, it would seem that failing to allow the coated bullets to properly dry prior to baking is the main cause of smash failure.

Watch this space.....

[Gremlin460]

Now that is very interesting..!!

Also had some Bronze mixed in the shed, from 2 months ago, went and looked and noticed mixture had turned black!!.
Not that it mattered, just a note that after a couple of months I had one look like its gone off.

I haven't cast or coated for month or more now, been busy on other projects.

[Love Life]

Ausglock- Not only does it have a larger bake time range, it also has a wider bake temperature range.Try the acetone swipe test on all of your boolits baked at different times and let us know what happens...

[Ausglock]

Did that. All passed the wipe test too.
The coating used for this test was mixed 0n May 10th and has been sitting on my bench.
So it has been mixed for 5 weeks and still working fine.

This DRY-TEK seems to be the duck's guts...

[kweidner]

I let mine pre-warm on the top of the oven instead of hair dryer. That works too. I work with 10 racks at a time and 2 ovens. This is about 2500 9mm. Takes 5 shifts of 12 minutes. By the time load 3 or 4 is in, load one is cool and ready to coat again. 5 comes out and one is ready to bake round two.

[HI-TEK]

Ausglock- Not only does it have a larger bake time range, it also has a wider bake temperature range.Try the acetone swipe test on all of your boolits baked at different times and let us know what happens...

Love Life,
Thanks for your support and data.
The coatings have a minimum requirement with temperatures.
Cross linking aspects start to take place at approach to 180C, which seems the triggering point to cross link and harden and bond to metal.
Generally as a rule of thumb, at 180C, it should be adequately cross linked to pass the smash and solvent tests.

To clarify things a little,
1. Solvent test was started, to determine adequate cure at a specific time, so next coat did not remove previous coat by acting as a paint stripper.
Not enough cure or temperature, had caused next coat to be stripped of with addition of next coating mixture. If this "stripping" happens, then it is a re-melt, as the finish is very poor, and rough and cant be fixed.

2. Smash test was started to determine adhesion to alloy during severe deformation as occurring with sizing and shooting.
If coatings survive smash tests, and solvent tests, it can be re-coated without worry, and subsequent applications of coatings should work out OK.

3. Temperature & time of cure matters.
a. First, as per requirements, both projectile and coating must reach at least 180C.

Cure at 180C takes about 15 or more minutes, (depending on air circulation inside oven).
The temperatures and resident times in ovens, was adopted for commercial production uses.

Speed of cooking required for mass production, requires higher temperatures to reduce resident time in oven, so, a cyclone air circulation at a higher temperature above 180C, is ideal, and significantly shortens required resident time in oven with temperature rise.
Achieving the solvent test and smash test to satisfy "mass high volume users" is what was kept in the forefront.

b. As published on data sheets, the coating has residual ability to "automatically react" with additional heat with extra time in the oven, or with friction heat, or heat from powder, to further cross link and further harden the polymer.

Heating for additional times as carried out by Ausglock, simply provides support to the coating being able to withstand heat and stay bonded to alloy, although being made darker in colour.

(With this test result, I am now wondering, if by our concentrating on "cooking cycles for pistol use temperatures and times", (high volume market), we had in fact overlooked possibility of the coatings being softer than that required for rifle uses.)

c. Ausglock, advised, that at 20 minute bake, the coated projectiles were so slippery, that it was difficult to pick them up.

Hope I have clarified some aspects, and must admit, I also had learned a few things as well.

[Love Life]

I baked up to 24 minutes and up to 425F with the fire engine red powdered HI-TEK. It adhered well, passed all the hammer tests, and shot very well. However; there was always some color on the rag after a swipe test with acetone. This coating is much more...elastic-ish and not like a hard candy coating like the 3 part liquid system.

[Avenger442]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;2825553]

(With this test result, I am now wondering, if by our concentrating on "cooking cycles for pistol use temperatures and times", (high volume market), we had in fact overlooked possibility of the coatings being softer than that required for rifle uses.)

HI-TEK
Are you saying that by cooking the coating at slightly higher temp. and for a longer time the coating will become harder and able to withstand the higher pressures that are typical of rifle vs. pistol?

We know that harder lead alloy withstands higher pressures. But hard lead alloy is more expensive ie. wheel weights cheaper vs. Linotype harder but more expensive. Can we replace some of the strength needed in the lead with the strength (hardness if you will) of the coating?

I understand, the coating is not meant to be a jacket but a lubricant.

[HI-TEK]

I baked up to 24 minutes and up to 425F with the fire engine red powdered HI-TEK. It adhered well, passed all the hammer tests, and shot very well. However; there was always some color on the rag after a swipe test with acetone. This coating is much more...elastic-ish and not like a hard candy coating like the 3 part liquid system.

Thanks for your input.
With the Red coloured material you tested, did you do the solvent wipe test straight after last coat?
Interestingly, a local also advised, that after doing final coating and cooling, the Red was evident on solvent test.
The next day, coating passed all tests. (It seem to have "self healed".)
I suspect, that the red coating additives, may have an affect on film characteristics, and these affects which seem to be reduced with storage.
The Powdered version should perform same as liquid versions.
I dont know if you had compared the liquid red to the powdered red side by side.
It would be useful to have those sort of comparisons.
My rationale, that both solvent and powder versions may not fully encapsulate all the red components and that is why there may be a red stain on solvent wipes.

After shooting the projectiles, was there any residue inside barrel?

[Love Life]

Solvent wipe was done as soon as they had cooled after their second coat. The color still showed on the rag 2 days later. That was with the powder.

With the 3 part liquid red/copper, the bullets passed the solvent wipe test immediately after cooling.

In my tests, their was no comparable difference in accuracy between the two coating systems. Performance in the barrels identical. Absolutely no leading and no coating coming off in the barrels.

The only oddity showed with the 10mm at full horse power and only with one bullet profile (SWC). The throat shaving the driving bands was the cause there and not the coating as the issue went away when I switched to RN and WFN profiles.

I find the powder coating coats much better and more uniform. I prefer it over the 3 part system. The best way to incorporate the powder into the acetone is to sort of tumble it I while stirring with a glass stirring rod or in a bug juice bottle with some boolits in it as agitators and then shake the stank out of it.

Additionally, the powder coating has much different separation and dilution qualities. It stays mixed together MUCH better than the 3 part liquid system.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;2826319]

(With this test result, I am now wondering, if by our concentrating on "cooking cycles for pistol use temperatures and times", (high volume market), we had in fact overlooked possibility of the coatings being softer than that required for rifle uses.)

HI-TEK
Are you saying that by cooking the coating at slightly higher temp. and for a longer time the coating will become harder and able to withstand the higher pressures that are typical of rifle vs. pistol?

We know that harder lead alloy withstands higher pressures. But hard lead alloy is more expensive ie. wheel weights cheaper vs. Linotype harder but more expensive. Can we replace some of the strength needed in the lead with the strength (hardness if you will) of the coating?

I understand, the coating is not meant to be a jacket but a lubricant.

Avenger 442,
The tests results certainly point that way.

We already are aware, that the "set" polymer as used now, is adequately cross linked at temperature and time to meet requirements.
We also know that at that point, the polymer is not totally or fully cured, and additional time or higher temperatures, in fact should push the cross link density further to completion.

The question is, what are the effects on such baked film, and rationale is, that the film should be harder, but by how much, it is not known, as no one over the years ever wanted to determine those parameters.

In terms of coating withstanding higher pressures, again, I really cannot advise what pressures are being imposed onto coatings, and what additional pressures arise from various shooting types.

The interest by shooters was that the film separated alloy from barrel without leaving residues. There is some lubrication, but that is not the pre-requisite.
Coating should stay put, bonded to alloy and not transfer onto barrel, whilst shooting process is taking place, and conform to hydraulic deformations and keep separated the alloy and barrel.

Your question about replacing jacketed type ammo with a harder coating matrix is a good one, but due to lack of adequate such comparative testing in those areas, it may be a simple test to compare standard cure with longer cured projectiles in the same gun with same loads.
That way, hopefully we can get more positive confirmations to your question.

Apology for my long answer, but I really can only provide my interpretations on what should happen.
May be longer cured coatings will work as you are proposing, and may be they wont.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Love Life;2826337]Solvent wipe was done as soon as they had cooled after their second coat. The color still showed on the rag 2 days later. That was with the powder.

With the 3 part liquid red/copper, the bullets passed the solvent wipe test immediately after cooling.

Love Life,
I am a little confused with your above post.
Did you try Red Copper powder against Red Copper liquid?

If this is what you did, then there may have been something wrong with powdered applied system for the colour coming off the coatings as Red Copper colour will not or should I say should not be evident, with solvent wipe test.

If you are comparing Red powder with Red Copper coatings, ( one is metallic and one is not), they contain totally different ingredients and will provide some differences with final coat properties..

[Love Life]

I was comparing the red powder against the red copper 3 part liquid system. Two different coatings. One with metallic and one without.

I don't sweat the color on the rag because they shoot fine. I also coat thick. I use 5ML of the powder/acetone to coat about 2 to 2 1/2 lbs of boolits.

The 10mm targets are 18 rds per target fired at 25 yds from the sitting to gauge field accuracy

The 45 ACP targets are 14 rds per target fired at 20 yds from the sitting to gauge field accuracy.

The stuff is legit, and I hope the US dealers sell large jars as I have no interest in ready mix packets.

Here are the different ratios of acetone to powder: