45 acp alloy and leading

[Char-Gar]

I have to to back my die off and run my seating stem almost out of threads with rcbs. .453 bullet with M flare is too fat for my die and starts to close case mouth before even getting to stem leaving me with a nice little ring of lead undetected to the eye but one trip around with the fingernail tells the truth.

I found your post and problem somewhat cryptic, most likely due to use of terms. Here is my response..

1. There is no such thing as a "M flare" in RCBS dies. the "M die" is a Lyman product and quite different from the expanders used by other makers.
2. Below is a pic of the M die expander from my Lyman 45 ACP dies. You will not a distinct two step expander. The first and longer step expands the cases mouth .449 and the second shorter step expands the top of the case mouth .455, plenty big for .453 bullets. There is no flair at all, just two steps. In use the bullet is started into the larger (.455) portion of the case and then placed into the seating die for seating.
3. The RCBS and other makes do use an expander which puts a flair or bell on the case mouth. The amount of this is determined by the reloader depending on how far down into the case he shoves the expander.

If you are using the RCBS type expander and having the problems you state, there is an issue with the adjustment of the seating die for you should have no problem seating .453 bullet in your RCBS die. Here is what I think is going on and how to properly adjust the seating die.

1. Take a sized but unexpanded case and place it in your shell holder and run the ram to the top of the stroke.
2. Now screw the die down until the case mouth hits the crimp ring in the die. You can feel this quite easy. Now back the die off a smidge to make certain there is no contact between the case mouth and the crimp ring in the die.
3. With the seating stem backed way off, place a bullet in a case and adjust the stem to locate the bullet at the depth you want in the loaded round.

Now here is where you are having a problem.....You most likely are trying to seat and crimp in the same operation and the crimp is turning the case mouth in shave some lead before the bullet is fully seated. It has nothing to do with the extra .001 or .002 bullet diameter.

Buy a Taper Crimp die and use it to crimp AFTER all cases have been charged and the bullet seated to the proper depth. With the 45 ACP round, seating and crimping should be done in different dies and different operations and a taper crimp used. I won't run on and give instructions on how to adjust a taper crimp die as I have run on too long.

[Hickok]

I was going to suggest that alloy also, but add 2% tin to it, this works in my .44 Mag like magic!

Most people use a taper crimp with the ACP, I never tried a roll crimp because it's not meant for one.

Do you have any 231 around? 5.3gr would work good if you want to try a diff but well tested powder.

I may be mudding up the water when I say roll crimp. Sorry for the confusion.

I am not "roll crimping" the case in the sense as used in a 44 mag, but merely truing up the "flare" or enlargement made by the expander die. I checked the case in the chamber to make sure I am headspacing off the front edge of the case. "Roll Crimp" is the wrong term, sorry.

I don't want anyone to "Roll Crimp" the ACP case, as the headspace needs a good square case lip to be correct. I have to be more careful and precise in my wording.

[12DMAX]

I found your post and problem somewhat cryptic, most likely due to use of terms. Here is my response..

1. There is no such thing as a "M flare" in RCBS dies. the "M die" is a Lyman product and quite different from the expanders used by other makers.
2. Below is a pic of the M die expander from my Lyman 45 ACP dies. You will not a distinct two step expander. The first and longer step expands the cases mouth .449 and the second shorter step expands the top of the case mouth .455, plenty big for .453 bullets. There is no flair at all, just two steps. In use the bullet is started into the larger (.455) portion of the case and then placed into the seating die for seating.
3. The RCBS and other makes do use an expander which puts a flair or bell on the case mouth. The amount of this is determined by the reloader depending on how far down into the case he shoves the expander.

If you are using the RCBS type expander and having the problems you state, there is an issue with the adjustment of the seating die for you should have no problem seating .453 bullet in your RCBS die. Here is what I think is going on and how to properly adjust the seating die.

1. Take a sized but unexpanded case and place it in your shell holder and run the ram to the top of the stroke.
2. Now screw the die down until the case mouth hits the crimp ring in the die. You can feel this quite easy. Now back the die off a smidge to make certain there is no contact between the case mouth and the crimp ring in the die.
3. With the seating stem backed way off, place a bullet in a case and adjust the stem to locate the bullet at the depth you want in the loaded round.

Now here is where you are having a problem.....You most likely are trying to seat and crimp in the same operation and the crimp is turning the case mouth in shave some lead before the bullet is fully seated. It has nothing to do with the extra .001 or .002 bullet diameter.

Buy a Taper Crimp die and use it to crimp AFTER all cases have been charged and the bullet seated to the proper depth. With the 45 ACP round, seating and crimping should be done in different dies and different operations and a taper crimp used. I won't run on and give instructions on how to adjust a taper crimp die as I have run on too long.

I was responding to the OP's statement below. What I was saying is that I too found my rcbs seating die a bit tight when trying to seat a .453 bullet into a case flared by a Lyman M die so i backed the die body off as far as i could so my case was barely entering the die and i still had enough stem to get proper OAL. I discovered that before i was doing this the case mouth was being closed up as the bullet was being seated and shaving some lead. I always crimp in a seperate step.

The RCBS dies I have for 45ACP are not the best for cast. My seating die is too tight, a case with a boolit, is a very tight fit all the way in the die until the boolit is seated. So I used my Lyman 45 Colt seating die to seat the bullet to proper depth. Bullet and case had plenty of room and went up into seating die nicely. And no, I dont expand my cases to look like the end of a trumpet, just enough to seat a boolit with finger pressure about 1/16" deep, and then run it into the seating die.

[lka]

Maybe this will help,

Kimber 1911 stainless barrel with about 500 cast rounds through it before cleaning, I will clean it with the otos kit using their lube and what-not and it will be like a mirror again with little work....

[Good Cheer]

I see this thread is still alive, so here is a little personal history factoid about bullet hardness in the 45 ACP.

When I first started with the 45 autopistol, it was often stated in print, that a hard alloy was needed to take and hold the shallow rifling in the barrels of these pistols. So I used linotype as it was the hardest things around, and it worked reasonable well.

This was placed in print by folks who I assumed knew what they were talking about including Elmer Keith.

When Speer brought out it's 200 grain swaged SWC which looked like H & G 68 I bought a few to give them a try. I was in grad school and was short of time. I expected poor accuracy due to the hyper soft alloy and could not figure why Speer would market such obvious dud. To my surprise these soft swaged bullet gave accuracy equal to or better than my hard alloys and zilch in the leading department. So much for needing hard alloy to take and hold the rifling.

It was about this time, I got involved in Bulleye pistol matches and found the competitors there had broken the code on the bogus need for hard alloy several generations before.

Misinformation gets placed in print (or on the net) and folks assume it is true. It gets repeated and repeated until it takes on the status of fact which it never way. It them becomes almost impossible to get folks to back away from it as it has the ring of established truth, when in fact it is just an "old wives tale".

From time to time, I read on this site a post where somebody repeats this myth, so it is not entirely dead. It is sort of like Jason in Friday the 13th.

Even the supposed experts are not exempt from presenting unproved theory as fact. My mantra in all these matters is "If you ain't done it, don't talk about it!".

Nailed it. I gave up on "gun writers". Stuff keeps getting repeated. One repeats another and one persons guess or isolated observation soon becomes the all encompassing truth.
For my part I'm still pursuing perfection with that goofy gas checked 452484 that was rejected by quality control at Lyman for the cherry being inserted too deeply into the blocks and is now hugely hollow pointed. Leading has not been a problem with scrap metal and homebrew lube.

[Pitchnit]

I had exactly the same problem and got the same advice that took care of the issues just like you. About the same time I found a Lyman 450 and carnuba red. Works great. Enjoy, these guys are good.

[singleshot]

I can push a 230 gr pure lead, LLA lubed boolit to over 900 fps in every one of my 45 acp's with no leading, no gas checks, and better accuracy than I'm capable of. I contend there is no such thing as too soft lead in the 45 acp. For simplicity and cost, I usually shoot straight wheel weights. When that dries up, I'll shoot pure lead.

[Hickok]

I had exactly the same problem and got the same advice that took care of the issues just like you. About the same time I found a Lyman 450 and carnuba red. Works great. Enjoy, these guys are good.

Pitchnit I totally agree. Most of my casting has been for S&W and Ruger revolvers. Never shot cast in an semi auto pistol before, and I fell for the old myth "45 ACP barrels have shallow rifling and require hard bullets inorder to shoot well" There are two kinds of oats you can buy, the kind in front of the horse and the kind in back of the horse, and this "tip" is the kind in back of the horse!!!

I really thank each and everyone for the advice and taking the time to help. I have the Kimber shooting cast boolits nicely now, and I can afford to shoot it much more! And yes these guys are outstanding.

I can sit and read stickies for hours in total enjoyment!

[larrupin]

Hickok, I sure am glad you started this thread cause I just learned a ton reading through it.
Great responses guys, Thanks for the info, especially Char-gar!

Larrupin

[Hickok]

You are very welcome. It was sure a learning process for me, and I received a wealth of help.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

+1 for a good thread and discussion , without any bad blood...Nice guys. Jim

[Hickok]

Alloy, and hardness, have very little to do with leading in a 45 acp 1911. In the short run size .451, then borrow a throating reamer and spend the 60 seconds to throat it. There will be a lot of folks who will claim heresy at this advice, (.452 no matter what!), but I'm now at 50 Kimbers and counting, and it's worked every time.
BD

BD has it pinned down when it comes to my Kimber barrel. The throat area is abrupt and sharp, and like he says from considerable experience with Kimbers, throating it out would be the easy way to cure the problem.

My trial and error way finally worked, but again, I believe BD has the answer.

With the shoulder or ogive of the boolit seated out of the case, I think the sharpness of the throat was shaving the boolit as it entered the chamber.

By seating the boolit with the case flush or even with the shoulder/ogive of the truncated boolit, the boolit chambers without shaving lead. Anyway, it shoots lead free now.

[kbstenberg]

As soon as I get home from my Hospital Recoup. I also am going to start loading for my first auto 45. Kevin

[Hickok]

As soon as I get home from my Hospital Recoup. I also am going to start loading for my first auto 45. Kevin

I wish you all the best with the healing process, and hope you get back to the "man cave" real soon!

[Char-Gar]

Guys...I have a very long love affair with the "45 Automatic" pistol. I have loaded hundreds of thousands of round for them and every one with a cast bullet. the 45 ACP round is a great efficient and accurate round that is very easy to load once you understand how the gizmo works. We have over a hundred years experience loading the round in the 1911 pistol and there are no secrets left to discover.

I am very glad to see new folks taking up this great pistol and round and am delighted to be of some help every time I can. For fun here are my three current 1911 pistols, a Colt GM and two Norinco 1911A1s. The Norks have been updated a little with better sights, Colt barrels, bushings and triggers, Wolf springs and some neat grips.

[Tn Jim]

Hickok, I use a similar boolit to yours. I use the Lee 230 TC bevel base. It is sized to .452 and lubed with 50/50 Alox/bees wax. I load it over 5.2 grains of W231 and it shoots better in my Springfield Ultra Compact than I can hold it. When I first started with it I was loading it at 5 grains and I got the little spot of leading you described. Bumping the powder charge to 5.2 grains fixed that.