2400 in 223

[jackmanuk]

since i have tons of 2400 and ...well....nothing else i need a load for my 223 , i only see one instance of 2400 in the lyman load book using 11.5 max with 55 grn alloy, so im thinking on using 12 grains wit ha 55 grn fmj , should it be ok?

atm iv loaded one scoop of a .7cc lee dipper which is 9. something grns

[blaster]

Probably not safe. Jacketed bullets generally generate higher pressure than a like weight boolit. More powder will generate more pressure as well.

[jackmanuk]

hmm iv always assumed jacketed bullets produce less pressure when same weight and size because of the less friction of the copper

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

hmm iv always assumed jacketed bullets produce less pressure when same weight and size because of the less friction of the copper

Guilding Metal (the copper alloy used in jackets) has less friction than Lubricated bullet Lead alloy ???
I don't think so.

[steve4102]

hmm iv always assumed jacketed bullets produce less pressure when same weight and size because of the less friction of the copper

Good point.
Take a look at Ramshot 10MM data for example.

Silhouette.
200gr Jacketed=7.8gr Max
200gr Lead =6.7gr Max

AA #7
180gr Jacketed= 10.7gr Max
175gr Lead = 10.4gr

AA #9
180gr Jacketed = 13.5gr Max
185gr Lead = 13.0gr Max

According to Western Powders, it's appears you are correct. At least for the 10MM.

[454PB]

Good point.
Take a look at Ramshot 10MM data for example.

Silhouette.
200gr Jacketed=7.8gr Max
200gr Lead =6.7gr Max

AA #7
180gr Jacketed= 10.7gr Max
175gr Lead = 10.4gr

AA #9
180gr Jacketed = 13.5gr Max
185gr Lead = 13.0gr Max

According to Western Powders, it's appears you are correct. At least for the 10MM.

That's because published reloading data always wants to limit pressure and velocity of lead bullets to minimize leading. They won't recognize that proper cast boolits can be driven much faster than the average handloader realizes.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Good point.
Take a look at Ramshot 10MM data for example.

Silhouette.
200gr Jacketed=7.8gr Max
200gr Lead =6.7gr Max

AA #7
180gr Jacketed= 10.7gr Max
175gr Lead = 10.4gr

AA #9
180gr Jacketed = 13.5gr Max
185gr Lead = 13.0gr Max

According to Western Powders, it's appears you are correct. At least for the 10MM.

Look up some data that lists Pressures with their Data, that may probably change your mind.

[steve4102]

Look up some data that lists Pressures with their Data, that may probably change your mind.

OK. Here goes.


Silhouette.
200gr Jacketed=7.8gr Max Pressure 35,700psi
200gr Lead =6.7gr Max Pressure 34,250psi

AA #7
180gr Jacketed= 10.7gr Max Pressure 35,300psi
175gr Lead = 10.4gr Max Pressure 35,200psi

AA #9
180gr Jacketed = 13.5gr Max Pressure 34,100psi
185gr Lead = 13.0gr Max Pressure 34,700psi

Didn't change my mind, did it change yours?

[steve4102]

We can also look at the 45 acp. Very popular with lead bullets, yes.

Lost of powders to choose from, I'll pick from Hodgdon data for this one.

W 231 Jacketed Max = 5.3gr @ 16,800CUP
W 231 Lead RN Max = 5.3gr @ 16,900 CUP

My Favorite 45 Powder, WST.

WST 230gr Jacketed = 4.9gr @ 16,100 CUP
WST 230gr Lead RN = 4.3gr @ 16,400 CUP

Still the same, lead bullet achieve higher pressure with less powder. According to this Pressure data, he is correct.

[mpmarty]

If that's what you like to believe do a small test: Place a cast, sized and lubed boolit in chamber and see how hard it is to drive down the barrel. Repeat with jacketed at your own risk.

[AABEN]

Has any one used the moly to cote there lead bullets. I do all of my lead bullets.

[steve4102]

If that's what you like to believe do a small test: Place a cast, sized and lubed boolit in chamber and see how hard it is to drive down the barrel. Repeat with jacketed at your own risk.

Really, that's how you determine pressure in your handloads?

Instead of reading published data, you push a bullet or two through the bore and go by feel? Good luck with that.

I'll stick to Published Pressure tested data, thank you very much.

[Cosmiceyes]

I seek to disagree with everyone.I pistol reload gives no related reference to a bottle necked rifle stats.I say neither is wrong,but what has been given for reference would make me do further "case"study and some phone calls to ask powder manufacture. s'

[blackthorn]

Why in the world would you just pick a max load and proceed?? If you don't know---start low and work up!! On the other hand---it's your well being (or life) so do whatever you decide! Let us know what happens, or make arrangements for someone else to do so. Have a great (and safe) day!

[dverna]

Weight is only one factor. The amount of bearing surface will have an impact on pressure. As will the amount of crimp. as will seating depth.

The ONLY way to work up a safe load (without pressure equipment) is to start at recommended starting loads and work you way up while checking for signs of pressure. Well, that is what works for me. I normally stop at less than the max load because I tend not to push things and I stop once I get an accurate load.

Don Verna

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Look up some data that lists Pressures with their Data, that may probably change your mind.

OK. Here goes.


Silhouette.
200gr Jacketed=7.8gr Max Pressure 35,700psi
200gr Lead =6.7gr Max Pressure 34,250psi

AA #7
180gr Jacketed= 10.7gr Max Pressure 35,300psi
175gr Lead = 10.4gr Max Pressure 35,200psi

AA #9
180gr Jacketed = 13.5gr Max Pressure 34,100psi
185gr Lead = 13.0gr Max Pressure 34,700psi

Didn't change my mind, did it change yours?

While I thought the books would be in my favor, they are clearly not.

As I ponder on this, it is clear that this is just not a simple argument, because all things are not the same.

A properly sized cast boolit will seal the bore and contain the pressure til the boolit leaves the barrel. Now a Jacketed bullet will not conform to the rifling enough to seal it, hence allowing gases to pass by it and not allow for complete potential pressure buildup.

Another factor is that there is much less metal to metal contact with the jacketed bullet, than the Lead alloy boolit, which would lend to your argument of less friction when shooting a copper jacketed bullet.

But then there is the amount of compression/springback pressure of Jacket pushing against the rifling whereas the Lead alloy will just conform to the rifling.

Yep, just not a simple argument. I'm sorry I challenged you.

[facetious]

I bet that if you sent Alliant a e-mail and asked thy could give you a starting load.

[blikseme300]

Jackmanuk, are you wanting to load for a bolt or gas rifle?

[steve4102]

Another factor is that there is much less metal to metal contact with the jacketed bullet, than the Lead alloy boolit, which would lend to your argument of less friction when shooting a copper jacketed bullet.

I have read this several times and I can't come to the same conclusion. It makes little sense to me.

The jacketed bullets (most jacketed bullets) are solid from base to ogive. The Lead bullets are not solid as they (most lead bullets) have lube grooves reducing the amount of actual bearing surface.

The old Barnes solid copper bullets generated high pressures in weak to moderate jacketed loads. To solve the problem they introduced "rings" or "grooves" into the bullet reducing bearing surface thus reducing pressure. Very similar to the lube rings in Cast bullets, especially Tumble lube cast bullets.

I have to think that the lube grooves in cast bullet reduces bearing surface, not increase it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have read this several times and I can't come to the same conclusion. It makes little sense to me.

The jacketed bullets (most jacketed bullets) are solid from base to ogive. The Lead bullets are not solid as they (most lead bullets) have lube grooves reducing the amount of actual bearing surface.

The old Barnes solid copper bullets generated high pressures in weak to moderate jacketed loads. To solve the problem they introduced "rings" or "grooves" into the bullet reducing bearing surface thus reducing pressure. Very similar to the lube rings in Cast bullets, especially Tumble lube cast bullets.

I have to think that the lube grooves in cast bullet reduces bearing surface, not increase it.

Dang it ...quit making me think
lube grooves, another factor...and again a varying from boolit to boolit factor. AND a new reason to me that published cast boolit data is probably not exactly transferable from boolit to boolit just because they are the same caliber and same weight.

Here's a 500gr salvaged boolit from my S&W 500 Mag. Yes, the lube grooves reduce the metal to metal contact, but look how it conforms to the bore. I've recovered Jacketed bullets that almost look like new/unfired...with just mire scratches in the jacket, nothing indicating it conformed to the bore. Which would seem to me, to reduce bearing surface by up to 50%, dependant on rifling groove width.