Powder and primer storage in the house

[Alchemist]

That's what I assumed, mistakenly however. The powder I mentioned was in the containers they were sold in which was stored in "Zip-Lock" plastic food storage bags, these were then placed in a filing cabinet drawer so except for factory containers they were sold in there was nothing to really confine the powder. I don't know if it was exposure to the intense heat or what but one thing I do know for sure is that it was a very violent event that far exceeded anything we expected, I have no doubt it could have resulted in serious injuries had anyone been close to it.

Most likely the barn collapsing on top of the filing cabinet crushed the whole thing into a giant shell casing. Add the weight of the barn debris laying on top, and the resistance to the expanding powder gas would be fairly significant. Once the powder ignited, the results speak for themselves.

Unconfined smokeless powder burns very inefficiently. It needs to be contained to generate pressure. The storage cabinet construction guidelines state that the joints should be weak so the cabinet can burst open at a low pressure to avoid having an catastrophic failure.

[C.F.Plinker]

National Fire Protection code has guidelines. Most of the freebie handout reloading pamplets have those guidelines included. Local codes can and do have different amounts permitted. Usually much less than what is spelled out in the NFP code.

Some of the freebie handouts and information in the reloading manuals is very outdated. I have seen some recently that refer to the 1985 NFPA 495. The latest revision is the 2010 revision. IIRC it says that all powder must be kept in the original factory containers. If the amount of smokeless powder exceeds 20 pounds but is not greater than 50 pounds the factory containers must be stored in a wood container having 1" walls. The original factory containers of black powder must also be stored in the wood container up to 20 pounds. The storage requirements get more rigorous once you exceed 50 pounds of smokeless or 20 pounds of black powder.

You can keep up to 10,000 primers in the cartons of 100 or 1000. Once you go over 10,000 you can keep up to 150,000 if they are in the DOT 1.4S shipping containers.

Other posts in this thread correctly point out that local fire codes may not refer to the latest revision of the NFPA codes and that local laws may further limit the quantities you can store in a residence.

[Roundnoser]

You won't have to tell them. There will be an investigation and they will find out. If you think you know better than the fire code then by all means store it how you want to. The codes are there to protect the fire fighters and you the homeowner. Putting your home insurance at risk because you think you know better is just dumb. I can tell you for a fact that claims have been denied for less. As soon as they find reloading supplies in the rubble there will be a test for powders and primers. They don't take these type of things with a grain of salt. Especially when it's a claim for rebuilding a new home.


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You wouldn't be calling me "dumb" now would you? That wouldn't be nice! Come on now Dragon, we're all just trying to learn and have a little fun while doing it. Surely you sensed a little playful sarcasm in that post, didn't you?!

Just so you know, and in case my insurance company is monitoring this...As a responsible homeowner, I would never, ever exceed any powder or primer limit established in my insurance policy or community standard.

See, now everything is all better.

[GabbyM]

Quick inventory of this house and lot reviels.
Three 20lb LP gas cylinders.
An LP gas tank for the house. Think that's 300 gallon.
An old step van with two 80 gallon fuel tanks. One D2 one gasoline.
Combine and four tractors with aproxamately 160 gallons of D2 and gas on board between them. All the D2 will be drained after bean harvest and sold to a neighbour to burn through his heating stove.
Two lawn tractors with 3 gallon tanks and 5 and 1 gallon carry cans. plus a weed eater and a coupel push mowers with smal tanks.
Paint and solvents.

The house here was built in the 1890's and is described by a fireman family member as a match box. All my relaoding equipmnet and supplies are at my home in town.

My take on it is house fires are a nightmare. Toxic fumes from furniture is what I percieve as the great danger. But I'm no fireman.

[oldred]

Most likely the barn collapsing on top of the filing cabinet crushed the whole thing into a giant shell casing. Add the weight of the barn debris laying on top, and the resistance to the expanding powder gas would be fairly significant. Once the powder ignited, the results speak for themselves.

Unconfined smokeless powder burns very inefficiently. It needs to be contained to generate pressure. The storage cabinet construction guidelines state that the joints should be weak so the cabinet can burst open at a low pressure to avoid having an catastrophic failure.

Well you just caused me one of those "now why didn't I think of that" moments. That's the most logical explanation so far and likely was what happened but the fact remains that in a burning house anything might happen unlikely or not, in the event the fire causes the house to collapse on a protected storage the same thing could happen. In such a case a fire resistant storage container might actually compound the problem rather than make it safer, lot's of maybes and mights but they are all distinct possibilities.

[Roundnoser]

What would you think about storing primers / powder in an old chest freezer? I have one in my basement that hasn't worked in years. It is a big compartment, insulated and is water-tight.

[Jim]

What would you think about storing primers / powder in an old chest freezer? I have one in my basement that hasn't worked in years. It is a big compartment, insulated and is water-tight.

I'd use it.

[SciFiJim]

What would you think about storing primers / powder in an old chest freezer? I have one in my basement that hasn't worked in years. It is a big compartment, insulated and is water-tight.

For everyday storage it would be ideal. However, in the event of a house fire, something heavy could land on the top and effectively seal the container and make it a bomb. Do you have a shed or outbuilding that you could put the old freezer in? A small building would be less likely to have something heavy fall on the top.

Or you could stand the freezer on end and build shelves on the inside of it. That could actually increase the usable storage area.

[Jammer Six]

If the fire safety codes call for placing large quantities of powder into a wooden box with 1-inch or thicker walls, couldn't that result in a explosion of the powder?

No.

Modern propellent burns, it does not explode.

Speaking as a general contractor, all of the continental United States and Hawaii is covered by zoning laws at some level.

I'm not sure about Alaska, those folks are nuts.

The weirdest zoning model I've read (at one point, it was a minor hobby of mine) dealt with salt water crocodiles. The most expensive were all commercial. The oldest dealt with water rights, the newest (at that time) with energy conservation.

Don't go by zoning laws. Zoning laws are the barest, lowest standard. They are an absolute minimum.

If you're looking for guidelines from industry, look for "best practices."

Best practices are the opposite of zoning laws. Best practices will actually work.

[MtGun44]

Bullseye is about 20% nitroglycerine, IIRC. I'd bet the boom was the BE going off.

Bill

[Blacksmith]

No one has mentioned one of the worst containers for storing powder and primers. For any newbee's reading this DON"T store bulk powder and primers in GI Ammo cans. They seal very tightly and are of strong construction and can become bombs in a fire.

Many do store loaded ammo in ammo cans but the amount of powder and primers in loaded ammo is much less than bulk storage. Say 250 rounds of 30-06 in a 30 caliber ammo can has about 1 3/4 pound of powder and 250 primers and they are unlikely to all cook off at the same time.

[Lloyd Smale]

It may not explode but believe me the ignition of a couple hundred lbs of a powder and a couple hundred thousand primers at the same time is the next best thing to an explosion. My nieghbor said when mine went off there was a dull roar for about 30 seconds and within another 30 seconds the roof just melted and colaspsed and it was a newer pole barn and had 14 foot side walls so there was definately a hell of a ball of fire in there to melt that that fast. Dont know about you but id about bet if you had a loading room in your home or basement with even a 1/4 of that which probably most here do have your not going to save your home or possibly even family members.

No.

Modern propellent burns, it does not explode.

Speaking as a general contractor, all of the continental United States and Hawaii is covered by zoning laws at some level.

I'm not sure about Alaska, those folks are nuts.

The weirdest zoning model I've read (at one point, it was a minor hobby of mine) dealt with salt water crocodiles. The most expensive were all commercial. The oldest dealt with water rights, the newest (at that time) with energy conservation.

Don't go by zoning laws. Zoning laws are the barest, lowest standard. They are an absolute minimum.

If you're looking for guidelines from industry, look for "best practices."

Best practices are the opposite of zoning laws. Best practices will actually work.

[Digger]

Call me crazy maybe , after reading all the input and recommendations here on this thread .....
My old shed is separated on one end by a small room with concrete floor (the loading room) and the rest of it is covered in old canvas/carpet dirt floor . Yes it sounds strange but ..... how about using an small concrete water meter box or little bigger electrical box , N- 36 concrete box in the floor of the dirt part ? ... it can be sealed inside for water proofing ..... the lids are concrete , loose just sitting there with gravity , and in the event of fire , the concrete will have an insulating factor to some extent ..... any how just a thought for primer/powder storage .
Give me some input on the down side ? .... may be a little nuts here ? ......or not ...
digger

[oneokie]

Call me crazy maybe , after reading all the input and recommendations here on this thread .....
My old shed is separated on one end by a small room with concrete floor (the loading room) and the rest of it is covered in old canvas/carpet dirt floor . Yes it sounds strange but ..... how about using an small concrete water meter box or little bigger electrical box , N- 36 concrete box in the floor of the dirt part ? ... it can be sealed inside for water proofing ..... the lids are concrete , loose just sitting there with gravity , and in the event of fire , the concrete will have an insulating factor to some extent ..... any how just a thought for primer/powder storage .
Give me some input on the down side ? .... may be a little nuts here ? ......or not ...
digger

One of our members who lives in the desert southwest posted his storage method. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56165

He would dig a trench in the ground and stack truck tires, then back fill around them. He used plywood? for lids and would cover with a thin layer of soil for camoflage.