Drop Tube?

[byronw999]

Hey all...

Can someone explain why a drop tube is needed? If you are compressing the load it seems to me that using a drop tube doesnt make any sense. If you were not compressing the powder I could see the point.

I've asked a few of the old hands around the club and they all seem to think it's an 'old wives tale' sorta thing.

I'm not new to BP.. I've been shooting muzzle loaders, C&B pistols and use BP cart in cowboy action for years..

I did just buy a Pederlosi Sharps in 45-70 which is why I'm asking.. I will be picking it up in the morning

Thanks in advance

Byron

[Don McDowell]

That's pretty much the track I take with loading this ammo. If I'm going to have to compress anyway no point in using the droptube. You can also get alot of powder settling in the case if you use a slow pour just thru your funnel, or turning the handle on the powder dumper down very slowly, if charging straight into a case.

[montana_charlie]

There are actually two reasons for using a drop tube.

One is a concrete advantage, while the other reason is somewhat 'theoretical'.

Reason one is when you have a case that you want to put (say) 70 grains of powder in, but the capacity is too small. By using a drop tube, you can get all of the 70 grains in ... after which you can compress, or whatever else you plan on.

You could accomplish the same thing by pouring in part of the charge, tapping the case to settle the powder with vibration, then adding more powder.

Reason number two is the theory that dropping through the tube causes the individual powder granules to sift and sort themselves into a 'settled' powder column with little empty space contained in it.

Under the compression die, the whole column is (supposedly) subjected to equal pressure which causes a further compacting of the mass without cracking many kernels ... something which is believed to happen extensively when compressing an unsettled charge.

The compression, itself, allows more powder under a bullet and/or causes the powder to burn more efficiently. Settling the charge before compressing is believed to be instrumental in getting the SD and ES for the velocity down into single-digit levels.

I give you this in an objective manner, so you can make up your own mind about how much it matters to you.

Speaking subjectively, I drop tube and compress powder because (so far) I believe it does what they say. But, I plan to experiment with simple vibration, someday, after I have a load that is so dependable I can actually track any variations I incorporate.

CM

[Chicken Thief]

Chips bag: Contents may settle under transport.

If you droptube the individual kernels will settle more densly/evenly.
A non tubed charge may have a powder coloumn that is 10% higher (or more).
If both charges are compressed to a certain height then the untubed will be crushed to a greater degree, and in the worst case develop what's called a cigarette burn. Ie the powder will not ignite properly/completly and primarily burn from the end.

[Doc Highwall]

byronw999, one thing not mentioned is you want the height of the powder in the case to be the same height before compression. Does it matter if this was accomplished by drop tubing or vibration I do not think so, but it will be one less variable when the powder is compressed the same each time.
Any thing you can do to bring your ES down is a good thing.

[Don McDowell]

I'ld be interested to see what other's have actually done thru firing both over the chrony and on target, but the other day in the KIK test I did, powder was weighed out, dropped thru the funnel and compressed to a depth of .4 from the case mouth, velocity variation was something along the lines of 3-5 fps.
I load my wifes ammo the same way, 70 grs of 2f express into a remington nickel case , compressed with the wad on top enough to seat the saeco 645 bullet to the driving band. From the way her gun shot at Alliance this past match I'm thinking there's not much wrong with the way that's working.

[Gunlaker]

I'ld be interested to see what other's have actually done thru firing both over the chrony and on target, but the other day in the KIK test I did, powder was weighed out, dropped thru the funnel and compressed to a depth of .4 from the case mouth, velocity variation was something along the lines of 3-5 fps.
I load my wifes ammo the same way, 70 grs of 2f express into a remington nickel case , compressed with the wad on top enough to seat the saeco 645 bullet to the driving band. From the way her gun shot at Alliance this past match I'm thinking there's not much wrong with the way that's working.

Boy, it sure doesn't sound like there is much wrong with your technique. That's a nice velocity variation.

So far I drop tube and then compress. I do this because it seems to work and there are so many other variables to play with that I just haven't had time to mess with that yet.

Chris.

[Doc Highwall]

Don, you must have a consistent technique for pouring the powder to get 3-5 fps, I will take that any time.

[Don McDowell]

Doc sometimes a person just needs to stop and wonder about what will still shoot accurately and what won't. Would 10-20 fps really open up a group that much? If a person has a 2fps spread on a load that won't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside with both doors closed, that tight spread really isn't doing much for ya..

[oldracer]

When I started with my Rolling Block about a year ago I asked the same question and thought that using a tube AND then compressing the powder was sort of silly. Well after I bought all the back issues of Black Powder Magazine and reading the several articles on this very question I found that what was affected most was the range of velocity changes (deviation) when using nothing, a drop tube and also a vibrator. The tube and compression resulted in the lowest spreads it seems. I also asked the BPCR shooter I have run into and one in particular who has a wall covered with plaques and they all said use a tube and compress as necessary with the 500 to 520 grain bullets. But they also said try everything as these rifles are all different so I spent about 3 months experimenting and I found that using a drop tube AND compressing seemed to give me the best accuracy so that is what I do.

The exception was when I was loading some 62 grain FFG loads with 300 grain bullets, there was almost zero compression required to have the bullet sitting right on the wads (milk carton and newsprint) so I did not compress them at all, just push the bullet in by hand.

[Doc Highwall]

Don, you are right in the fact low extreme spreads do not take into account the affect of barrel vibrations and accuracy.This is worst with high power guns as their barrels are mostly free floated but with black powder cartridge guns with a lot of people resting on the sweet spot it does help dampen barrel vibrations affecting accuracy.
Taking into account that you have a good shooter with a good load and low extreme spreads will not only allow them to not loose points at 6 and 12 o'clock due to higher extreme spreads but also shoot higher scores because the shots that are just slightly blown left or right do not end up being 9's at 10 and 2 o'clock or 8 and 4 o'clock giving a advantage in the wind.
A shooter who is not the best but has total confidence in his gun and load because of having low extreme spread would be better then a better shooter, who does not have confidence in his gun and load when it comes to shooting matches, because he will have a excuse in the back of his mind and it can affect his performance like chasing shots around the target. This will be farther aggravated with greater distance.
If I had a load that was shooting small groups at a long distance, and I could lower the extreme spread some more, I would know that it would perform even better at a longer distance then if I did not lower the extreme spread giving me greater confidence and drive to shoot my best.

[byronw999]

Thanks for the replies! I now see that I'll need to find what works best for me and the rifle..

I did a lot more searching here after I started this post and in one of them Don mentions that there is no single right way to do things and you just need to find what works best for you... Good advice!

So in yalls opinions the drop tube or vibrating is to get the powder to settle/pack together better and its better to do this before compressing instead of just crunching it all down with a compression die?

[Don McDowell]

Doc , agreed that confidence in ones load is primary.
But I'm still falling onto the experiences and results I've had, and droptubing then compressing just doesn't look to be necessary. Compressing enough that the bullet doesn't get deformed during the seating process is a horse of another color.
Individual results may vary, tho and the best thing a shooter can do is work on all the load options, but be aware that it may be gun fit or shooters style that is breaking a load and not the load or how it was assembled.

[Don McDowell]

So in yalls opinions the drop tube or vibrating is to get the powder to settle/pack together better and its better to do this before compressing instead of just crunching it all down with a compression die?

I'm not one that follows that thought, in fact the results I've seen from the rifles lounging around the safe here, just compressing after you pour the powder in works as good as any.

[Doc Highwall]

Don, I myself lean towards drop tubing. They are variables in every thing we do and some of them are so subtle that we do not even know we do them because we have been doing it that way so long. The thing is to get the powder column to the same height, in the case before compressing. One thing about drop tubing is the real small fines will end up on the top of the powder column unless they were screened out first, but you still have to pour the powder into the funnel the same each time or you will make a variable in the powder column before compressing.

Vibrating is also not with out it's own problems, such as it will have to be vibrated at the right frequency and amount of time. Too little vibration or too short of time and it will not settle much, and too much vibration will work like fluffing it up.

I do not think you will break the powder grains down with too much vibration because it will jump out of the cases. You could break down lighter charges of smokeless powder in loaded ammo by tumbling and affect it's burning rate, but that is not what we are talking about here only black powder.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I fall in the drop tube group, mainly for consistancy more then anything, Chrono Data backs this up pretty much. Match results only cement that. I have tried only twice with Silhouette loads to just compress powder put in the case with out the aid of the drop tube. Both times were for Silhouette matches in an attempt to cut down on loading time. This was back when I worked Shift work at the mines.

Both times had less than good results. Remember this is on steel, and not a in my mind, real good test method. Silhouette is a X or a O type of match. Most of my misses were vertical at the turkey pig and Ram lines on order of about 4 MOA grouping, of course this resulted in less then 50% hits at turkeys and Rams and 60% at the pigs, which I feel was just blind luck. How ever since it gave me such crappy results I never looked back at that method again.

Since I have two of them 5@200 trophys on the wall, one with GG bullets and one with a PP load, there is a very slim to NO chance that I will quit drop tubing my loads in the near future.

I take a lot of what I see and hear from fellow shooters into my memory bank, And test quite a bit as time allows. That goes for just about every venue of BPCR and loads and lubes and such, even spotting scopes. I keep my eye on my scores and when I am still in the top half of the Pack I think will I stick to what I am using. I learn more every single time I go out and every single time I vist with some top shooters, Usually to the bennifit of my scores and load workup.

This past weekend was no exception, I spotted for the Top Sr Shooter at Alliance, the other two guys I was spotting for finished in the top 3. Not due to some magic skills, I had better optics then most, for doping conditions, and knew that the sharp clear picture they were all trying so hard to get on each target was not helping their spotting skills when the Mirage was telling a different story then the wind flags were. I kept hearing mirage is gone or no mirage, when in fact there was.

Factor in that the Two of the guys are very good national Ranked Long Range shooters and can tell me exactly where and what they broke on each shot makes it much easier, and the 3rd guy we have been working with, also came along very well this weekend with his 45-110 and a bullet we suggested to use and white lighting Lube, and we can dope it quite well. It makes a word of difference and all 3 guys scores are proof of that.

Factor in one other thing: to ponder:::: We were all using White Lighting lube, not a single one of us fouled out even on Sunday, I have no lead even in the 38-50 using a blow tube.

Watching John with his 45-110 beat Butch Clendenen with BP vrs Smokless to win High Sr Was a well earned win for John and I think I was about as happy as he was, when he called me to tell me they had gave the award to the wrong shooter, he was shooting with the big Dogs for sure. John thanked me several times, for the help. Fact is he was more confident in load and the help he got, this raised his level of confidence, and he just plan shot well, due to that, He still had to pull the trigger, all the Kudos are his, all the Credit is his.

But damm it was fun to spot for them! My scores suffered from spotting for so many folks, Saturday was Jimbo, His daughter and John. Sunday John and Bryan. Eye strain was evident both Sat and Sunday, I was working so hard on Seeing and pulling good shots friday in the 22 event I over did it.

I got what was what I consider the highest of complements, a young fella was shooting Next to Jimbo's Daughter, and quit listening to his (2) spotters and started using my dope I was giving, He shot a 9 on one target out of 12 after that and came over and thanked me. Then he asked me what kind of language Jimbo and I were using when we were shooting Scope.

KW

The Infused Lunger tonight
The Lunger

[cajun shooter]

Another fine posting KW and the story should be of great value to any shooter that does not drop tube. If they look at your records and what you have achieved over the years then a drop tube should be on the list. That young shooter will be telling that story for along time and will have a big laugh when he finds that language.

[Tom-ADC]

I use one, I'm a sport shooter just for fun, but I find its easier to load my cases using a drop tube, don't have to compress near as much and that works just fine for me.

[H-Marlin]

For several years I used a 24" drop tube and then I bought a new powder measure that came with a 6" drop tube. I had chronographed my load with the longer drop tube several times and wanted to check the difference using the shorter one. Comparing the two methods showed zero difference in average velocity and extreme spread. Both numbers came out exactly the same with two methods. I don't use a long drop tube any more, just compression.