New experiment why my handi rifle

[Hannibal]

I had one in .22 Hornet and I could not get it to shoot well enough to justify keeping it. I hope you have it figured it out. Nice little guns.

Perhaps the twist rate wasn't fast enough for the loads you were shooting? Just a guess.

[barrabruce]

I bedded the stock in mine to the rear of the action with something like jb weld.
It helped heaps as it wasn’t a good fit and tightened it down some.

That helped and the rubber or rubber oring on the fore-end screw.

I hold it like I would shoot it with off hand on fore-end.

How is the lock up on it as well?

I shim mine with a piece of paper or coke can.

That fore-end spring idea sounds interesting.

[Wolfdog91]

So this was interesting, the Handi and it's quirks show themselves yet again. So same rear bag , different front rest situation, just some store bought ammo.

Now after I got on paper I did not adjust my zero between targets, was really curious what would happen and !


So the front bag did give a smaller group BUT look at the groups themselves, see this is something a lot of handi rifles do to the point a lot of handi nuts don't shoot more then two shot groups , I think it's weird but that's their thing. Anyhow it's pretty normal for you two shoot a three shot group, have two super close or touching and one off to the side.
Seems to be no real time or reason either it's just something most of these guns do.
Another interesting thing is the the fact the bipod group was high then the bag group. Personally I feel this is simply because of how the gun acts with this type of bipod


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[Hannibal]

So this was interesting, the Handi and it's quirks show themselves yet again. So same rear bag , different front rest situation, just some store bought ammo.

Now after I got on paper I did not adjust my zero between targets, was really curious what would happen and !


So the front bag did give a smaller group BUT look at the groups themselves, see this is something a lot of handi rifles do to the point a lot of handi nuts don't shoot more then two shot groups , I think it's weird but that's their thing. Anyhow it's pretty normal for you two shoot a three shot group, have two super close or touching and one off to the side.
Seems to be no real time or reason either it's just something most of these guns do.
Another interesting thing is the the fact the bipod group was high then the bag group. Personally I feel this is simply because of how the gun acts with this type of bipod


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Huh. That's basically chaos, no discernable pattern.

I can't offer any specific advice at this time as I plan to chamber 2 seperate barrels. One in .22Hornet, one in 7-30 Waters. I'll be very curious to see what I find out from this endeavor.

Meanwhile, that appears to be a solid rubber butt pad. I suggest checking to see if the length of pull fits you. If it's a bit short, try a Pachmeyer slip-on pad and see how that goes. If the length of pull is good, maybe remove the stock pad and put the Pachmeyer on just to see if that helps. The slip-on pads are cheap and fit.a bunch of different stocks.

EDIT - what is that you have wrapped around the butt stock in your photos? And why are you using tinted lenses in one set-up and nothing in the other?

[Gtek]

How tight is the hand guard fitment to front of receiver? Have you tried shimming between plastic and forearm up to the point you can barely put the guard on and makes pretty stiff open and close? I put some really good grease on barrel lug cut and cross pin and kept shimming until I had real trouble getting guard on, slight increase seen on mine.

[Wolfdog91]

Huh. That's basically chaos, no discernable pattern.

I can't offer any specific advice at this time as I plan to chamber 2 seperate barrels. One in .22Hornet, one in 7-30 Waters. I'll be very curious to see what I find out from this endeavor.

Meanwhile, that appears to be a solid rubber butt pad. I suggest checking to see if the length of pull fits you. If it's a bit short, try a Pachmeyer slip-on pad and see how that goes. If the length of pull is good, maybe remove the stock pad and put the Pachmeyer on just to see if that helps. The slip-on pads are cheap and fit.a bunch of different stocks.

EDIT - what is that you have wrapped around the butt stock in your photos? And why are you using tinted lenses in one set-up and nothing in the other?

Strap on cheek riser very few rifles have stocks that are where I need for a good cheek weld so I have a few of these

And had a the sun on me worse at one point so j threw my shades on. As far as length of pull I'm comfortable with this stock. Be nice if it has an adjustable cheek piece though

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[Wolfdog91]

How tight is the hand guard fitment to front of receiver? Have you tried shimming between plastic and forearm up to the point you can barely put the guard on and makes pretty stiff open and close? I put some really good grease on barrel lug cut and cross pin and kept shimming until I had real trouble getting guard on, slight increase seen on mine.

Couldn't give you a torque spec though that's something I'm planning on trying.thstbgring said I've done everything from bedding the for arm to free floating it to doing the o ring trick

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[Hannibal]

Ok, well I've no personal experience with those cheek pads but I do know if anything can shift even a little it'll jack with your groups. And you're dealing with a break- action which means your having to break your position after every single shot.

The variables are working against you from the beginning.

If I were in your shoes, I'd pick a decent jacketed bullet, check your CBTO measurement and start establishing an accuracy baseline first.

Then if you still feeling an itch you want to scratch start anew with cast.

There really aren't any shortcuts. But there are plenty of places to confuse yourself with a good outing and then you wonder what went wrong when actually you just shot one or 2 abnormally good groups and thought those were typical. Without every realizing they were anomalies.

If you haven't already I'd suggest you get yourself a really accurate rifle and figure out just what size of groups you can shoot consistently to begin with. Over the period of several months. Perhaps you already have and already know.

[Wolfdog91]

Ok, well I've no personal experience with those cheek pads but I do know if anything can shift even a little it'll jack with your groups. And you're dealing with a break- action which means your having to break your position after every single shot.

The variables are working against you from the beginning.

If I were in your shoes, I'd pick a decent jacketed bullet, check your CBTO measurement and start establishing an accuracy baseline first.

Then if you still feeling an itch you want to scratch start anew with cast.

There really aren't any shortcuts. But there are plenty of places to confuse yourself with a good outing and then you wonder what went wrong when actually you just shot one or 2 abnormally good groups and thought those were typical. Without every realizing they were anomalies.

If you haven't already I'd suggest you get yourself a really accurate rifle and figure out just what size of groups you can shoot consistently to begin with. Over the period of several months. Perhaps you already have and already know.

O i have a few that shoot half way decent lol
My MVP is pretty boringly accurate and still working on my SPR's load


No real interest in short cuts or easy ways though , no real fun in that for me usually,need something that makes me pull my hair out and drives me a little crazy for a project.
Will say though kinda interesting because I got this little monstrosity I build from a old NEF versa pack .22lr and it shoot dime wise groups @50yd and ragged holes at 25ands less most days, Never seen much in the way of split groups though follow though is a bit more important.
Popping 12 ga hulls with it @ 100yd is pretty fun too

As far as jacketed loads , well I can make that thing stay within 1.5" all day with a few jacked loads I cooked up for it. No spectacular but this what it was doing when I first go it


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[Wolfdog91]

And some past notes with this rifle


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[Wolfdog91]

On a side note noticed my handi in .22hornet just plain prefers case bullets.
Quirky quirky little guns


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[Hannibal]

There's a reason why it likes cast better. My first 2 guesses would be the bore/throat diameter or the rate of twist.
3rd guess would be CBTO.

[gunnie]

Very, very interesting post.
I've only recently got into these little gems. Mainly as I wanted an SB2 45-70 for use in Pat Garrett side matches Single Action. Got my first one, loved it so bought another.
Then it dawned on me that these are no longer made so it would be a good idea to grab a couple for parts. Picked up one in 30-06 that had a loose action followed by one that was originally a 30-30. Around the same time I was given a bbl for the SB2 in 223.
Took both to my gunsmith with the intent of scrapping one action, fixing the other & fitting the 223 barrel as well.
The gunsmith tightened up the bbl/action of the 30-06 easy enough. As for the 30-30, apparently it had a dodgy chamber from new so the owner thought he'd improve the chamber to 30-30 AI to fix it. No dice! So another so-called gunsmith then cut the chamber to 307W, again it was a failure.
Well, my gunsmith did some head scratching, lots of measurements, chamber cast and sorted it out.
So now I have a 3-barrel SB2 combo in 223, 307/8W & 30-06. I'll stick with moderate cast loads for the 308 & 30-06 and work up a load for the 223.
Plus I have action spares & spare wood.

[Abert Rim]

Those are some very nice groups you have there! You deserve them for the serious work you are putting into your load experiments.

[dverna]

Perhaps the twist rate wasn't fast enough for the loads you were shooting? Just a guess.

I thought about this after reading Wolf's comment about people shooting 2 shot groups as these rifles seem to want to throw the third shot out of group.

I cannot recall how my gun performed shot to shot. But I am a shooter (well like to think so...LOL). I would have been shooting 5 shot groups. In fact, I have never used 3 shot groups as I know they cannot tell me what I want to know. I will stop after three shots if a load is terrible but have never intentionally shot less than 5 shots to work up a load.

Back then, I used a public range 35 miles away. No way I would waste my time to drive there, pay the range fee, lug everything to the firing line, and shoot 3 shot groups. I have never understood why people do that. But if these guns will only hold precision for 2 or 3 shots, I am glad I ditched mine. A gun like that is not something I would want.

Wolf, you will learn more about your loads if you put 5 shots into a group...and do it more than once. It is too easy to get fooled by a good three shot group. The three shot group seems to be gaining more traction, but it is not a good trend. Many rifle companies use it so they can make unrealistic claims about accuracy. I see more cast bullet shooters using 3 shot groups to "prove" they have a good load to avoid dealing with reality.

BTW, look at what guys like Larry Gibson post. Many times, he shows loads using 10 shot groups. I doubt I have ever seen him post a group with less than 5 shots. And I bet he shoots more than one group to "prove" a load.

You will be chasing your tail if you stay with three shot groups. Three shot groups will tell you if have a crappy load but will not tell you if you have a good load. The same applies to evaluating changes in your setup.

[jdsingleshot]

If you are a hunter, there's only one shot that matters. We don't shoot groups on game animals.

I've always shot 5-shot groups, but if I can count on the first shot to go where I want it, I'm content. I used to hunt woodchucks, and found there was rarely a reason for a second shot. Critter was dead or gone after the first.

[Wolfdog91]

I thought about this after reading Wolf's comment about people shooting 2 shot groups as these rifles seem to want to throw the third shot out of group.

I cannot recall how my gun performed shot to shot. But I am a shooter (well like to think so...LOL). I would have been shooting 5 shot groups. In fact, I have never used 3 shot groups as I know they cannot tell me what I want to know. I will stop after three shots if a load is terrible but have never intentionally shot less than 5 shots to work up a load.

Back then, I used a public range 35 miles away. No way I would waste my time to drive there, pay the range fee, lug everything to the firing line, and shoot 3 shot groups. I have never understood why people do that. But if these guns will only hold precision for 2 or 3 shots, I am glad I ditched mine. A gun like that is not something I would want.

Wolf, you will learn more about your loads if you put 5 shots into a group...and do it more than once. It is too easy to get fooled by a good three shot group. The three shot group seems to be gaining more traction, but it is not a good trend. Many rifle companies use it so they can make unrealistic claims about accuracy. I see more cast bullet shooters using 3 shot groups to "prove" they have a good load to avoid dealing with reality.

BTW, look at what guys like Larry Gibson post. Many times, he shows loads using 10 shot groups. I doubt I have ever seen him post a group with less than 5 shots. And I bet he shoots more than one group to "prove" a load.

You will be chasing your tail if you stay with three shot groups. Three shot groups will tell you if have a crappy load but will not tell you if you have a good load. The same applies to evaluating changes in your setup.

Almost always use 5 minimum as you can see in the second picture of the first post ,but due to the over whelming evidence that these are just plain different animals I made an exception. Also I get sick of all the smart A handi nuts who don't like to actually give any advice but love to jump down your throat when you do something out of their little rule book

[Wolfdog91]

There's a reason why it likes cast better. My first 2 guesses would be the bore/throat diameter or the rate of twist.
3rd guess would be CBTO.

1/9 twist I do custom CBTO for everything till I find what the gun likes the best I did do a chamber cast though because the chamber seems...off

[Hannibal]

1/9 twist I do custom CBTO for everything till I find what the gun likes the best I did do a chamber cast though because the chamber seems...off

Well share details. We can all potentially learn something here.

For instance, what is the freebore diameter and length?

You've mentioned that you have a borescope. Is the chamber concentric to the bore?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but there's a reason why it's finicky.

[Wolfdog91]

Well share details. We can all potentially learn something here.

For instance, what is the freebore diameter and length?

You've mentioned that you have a borescope. Is the chamber concentric to the bore?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but there's a reason why it's finicky.

I actually haven't measured any one it, really dont have too much of a clue to be fair . Got the alloy for another gun remembered someone recommending I chamber cast this one ,poured it then was kinda just staring there looking at like " umm....now what" that being said since this thing fire forms short instead of the brass growing I figured the chamber is sloppy or something so will probably just pull up the standard SAMMI print for .223 and compare measurements. That being said I think I need a micrometer for that to be semi accurate


As for the bore cam if if go to the 5min mark here you'll be able to see a quick view of the bore. Obvious tooling marks and something else, not sure if it's one kinda stress cracking or what
https://youtu.be/xj6AJDUQieE?si=_zttzD1Sb6EfjYRE

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