Winchester Super-Target...

[BCB]

Purchased a 5th Edition of Propellant Profiles and there are a few updates for the 2nd Edition, but I still can’t find a profile on Winchester Super-Target…

I have a burn rate chart and it lists WST right near Bullseye. I wonder if this, WST, is the same as Super-Target but with a different designation?...

Winchester had a line of these types of powders with similar names many years ago. Super Target, Super Lite (I think) and maybe another one…

I can find no data on Super-Target…

Was there ever a Propellant Profiles on this powder? Maybe a supplement, but I thought the supplements were included in updated versions of Powder Profiles—therefore I thought it might be in the latest 5th Edition…

Any place to find data on Super-Target for handguns?...

Thanks…BCB

P.S. Note the price on the can!

[BCB]

Whoops! Just looked at the canister a bit closer and I see they have WST1 on the front. So, I guess it might be the same powder...

Still I can't find any data...

BCB

[blaser.306]

What caliber/s are you looking for ? I may have some data here in some older manuals. I could scan them and send you an email , as I still have not mastered posting pics here yet!

[BCB]

blaser.306,

I was thinkin' about handguns. I have 38, 357, 44, and 45LC...

If I just had some starting loads to give me some idea no matter what the boolit weights...

Thanks...BCB

[blaser.306]

I took a look at my older data and it appears that the wst is too fast a powder for your application . with the exception of light target loads in .38 spec.
148 gr. lead / max 2.5 gr wst /680 fps / 13 000 (psi)
158 gr. lead / max 3.3 gr wst/ 705 fps/ 12 800 (psi)

Not mutch help but maybe a start , Perhaps this gives you reason to buy a new gun , As it would be a shame to have powder sitting around without a purpose !

[GSM]

BCB:

Some other names for Supertarget powder: 452AA (when I first knew it), WST1, then plain WST.


WST is nice in 45 ACP, 32 H&r Mag, 270 Ren (not Rem). Fairly nice pistol powder.

(At one time there was Superfield, Supertarget, and Superlight)

[BCB]

blaser.306,
I knew it was a fast burner and I sort of figured it could be used for those applications you listed. I do cast the 38-148-WC and it should work well with that boolit. I also cast a couple of 158er’s so I might have some use for it. Thanks…

GSM,
I did not know it was AA-452. I am a bit surprised it is a good choice for the 270 REN. I did have all of the Super series you have listed, I think. I used them many years ago when I was radically working on very light shot-weight loads for 12 gauge AA hauls. I was down to ½ ounce of #4 Cooper as a rabbit load and it worked very well. Without looking, I forget which of the powders I used. I know that I liked all of them for one or the other reasons/applications. Thanks…

BCB

[HangFireW8]

Whoops! Just looked at the canister a bit closer and I see they have WST1 on the front. So, I guess it might be the same powder...

The "1" in WST1 stands for the 1 pound can it came in. If you bought a keg it would be a 5 or 8. Winchester stopped labeling them like that because it caused too many cautious reloaders to bug them on their phone help line... like me.

-HF

[BCB]

HangFireW8,

Well, that clears a bit more up about this powder!...

From what I have learned so far, it appears to be a bit too fast for what I might use it for. I knew it was fast, but I was hoping for the best so I could use it up...

Don't reload for shotguns anymore as that was my original use for the powder...

Thanks...BCB

[KYCaster]

452AA is not the same as WST. They have similar burn rates, but that's all they have in common.

Winchester dropped 452AA from their line because of temperature sensitivity issues and replaced it with WST. WSL and WSF were introduced at the same time.

Hodgden now sells 452AA and call it Titegroup.

Jerry

[HangFireW8]

I'm sorry, I didn't address your main question.

Any place to find data on Super-Target for handguns?...

My 1990's free Winchester load books have loads for 38 Special, 38 Special +P (one load), 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, and 45 ACP. Of all of them, 45ACP is best populated, followed closely by 40S&W and 10mm.

Midway USA's excellent 1997 effort LoadMAP .45ACP Volume I also lists some WST cast bullet loads. A quick flip through the 9mm, .357, and 44Mag versions of LoadMAP didn't reveal any WST loads (that I can find).

Tell me what you want, I'll try to get some pics up soon (I can't trust my typing).

-HF

[Cherokee]

Are you sure about 452AA and Titegroup ? They are so far apart on the burn rate chart I have, and WST is listed just below Bullseye, not close to 452AA.

[dudel]

Purchased a 5th Edition of Propellant Profiles and there are a few updates for the 2nd Edition, but I still can’t find a profile on Winchester Super-Target…

!

Had the same problem with the same book! In the Winchester section, look at the page for Ball Powders (IIRC - early in the chapter). WST is discussed with WSF.

HTH

Don

[Dobetown]

452AA is not the same as WST. They have similar burn rates, but that's all they have in common.

Winchester dropped 452AA from their line because of temperature sensitivity issues and replaced it with WST. WSL and WSF were introduced at the same time.

Hodgden now sells 452AA and call it Titegroup.

Jerry

How did you find out 452 became Titegroup? Thasts good to know. I shot a lot of 452 years ago. Pistol and shotgun both it was good.
Thanks

[KYCaster]

How did you find out 452 became Titegroup? Thasts good to know. I shot a lot of 452 years ago. Pistol and shotgun both it was good.
Thanks

I heard a rumor to that effect shortly after Winchester made the switch, so I called Hodgden and the tech I talked to confirmed it.

Jerry

[KYCaster]

Are you sure about 452AA and Titegroup ? They are so far apart on the burn rate chart I have, and WST is listed just below Bullseye, not close to 452AA.

The Hodgdon site lists their shotgun/pistol powders in order of burn rate, fast to slow: Titewad, Clays, International, Titegroup, HP38, Universal, HS6, Longshot, H110, Lil gun.

The burn rate chart on the Reload Bench site lists the Hodgdon powders as: Titewad(#3), Titegroup(#12), Clays(#16), HP38(#22), International(#31), Universal(#36), Longshot(#54), Lil gun(#69), H110(#71).

The two lists don't have much in common and I tend to believe the Hodgdon list. My point is that various burn rate charts vary widely in the order that powders are listed and the information needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt and should never be used to interpolate load data.

I used quite a bit of 452AA when it was popular for IPSC major loads. I now use HP38 for the same application with very similar charge weights and very similar results. So my experience indicates that the two powders have very similar burn rates.

The Hodgdon site has data for Titegroup with a 200 gr SWC in 45 ACP starting at 4.8 gr for 877 fps(175 PF). I don't have any Winchester data on hand old enough to list 452AA, but IIRC 4.8 gr would be about right for a start load.

When Winchester made the switch to WST, I talked to a rep at Hodgdon who told me that 452AA and Titegroup are one and the same. My experience tells me that I have no reason to doubt it.

Jerry

[starbits]

If you go to this site

<http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp>

it provides loading data. It is bit strange in that you can't just list WST to get loads. You have to first select a cartridge and hit get data and then on the next page list the powder and hit get data again. As always work up your loads.

Starbits

[Dobetown]

The Hodgdon site lists their shotgun/pistol powders in order of burn rate, fast to slow: Titewad, Clays, International, Titegroup, HP38, Universal, HS6, Longshot, H110, Lil gun.

The burn rate chart on the Reload Bench site lists the Hodgdon powders as: Titewad(#3), Titegroup(#12), Clays(#16), HP38(#22), International(#31), Universal(#36), Longshot(#54), Lil gun(#69), H110(#71).

The two lists don't have much in common and I tend to believe the Hodgdon list. My point is that various burn rate charts vary widely in the order that powders are listed and the information needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt and should never be used to interpolate load data.

I used quite a bit of 452AA when it was popular for IPSC major loads. I now use HP38 for the same application with very similar charge weights and very similar results. So my experience indicates that the two powders have very similar burn rates.

The Hodgdon site has data for Titegroup with a 200 gr SWC in 45 ACP starting at 4.8 gr for 877 fps(175 PF). I don't have any Winchester data on hand old enough to list 452AA, but IIRC 4.8 gr would be about right for a start load.

When Winchester made the switch to WST, I talked to a rep at Hodgdon who told me that 452AA and Titegroup are one and the same. My experience tells me that I have no reason to doubt it.

Jerry

Thank you, I have used a little Titegroup so I'll try more.