Winchester 1886, 45-90 design

[Hednign]

This question has been asked hundreds of times, but I still havent been able to do a search and find a good answer to my question. Which is.... What is a good bullet design for the original Winchester 1886 45-90? Im looking for the most accurate bullet. I know its an express rifle, so the 300-375grs area is the place to look, but there isnt that many molds to choose from in that area.

Besides an accurate bullet design I would also like to find a mold that makes good hunting bullets. Ill make this rifle my old timer moose gun. That said I dont know if I can because norwegian big game law says that you have to have a rifle that makes an impact force of 2700 joule. That means I have to make a 300 grs bullet make 1729 fs at 100 meters. Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs. A 405 grs at 1490 fs would do it to. Do you think its possible to make that rifle produce those speeds? With a 300 grs bullet Im pretty sure I could compress and make it a 45-100, but I dont think that would give me much more speed....

A duplex load would help a bit, but enough? I dont want any smokeless only loads. Thats not an option. If I want to hunt smokeless I use my 375 H&H.


Any ideas guys?

[405]

Whew! Tough question there Hednign.

I'm a little surprised that the "joule" is used as the standard unit of measure. That tells me the system was/is designed around and gauged against high power- high velocity jacketed bullet ideas and norms for hunting. In the world of black powder and black powder cartridge ballistics as it relates to hunting.... momentum not kinetic energy is a better standard. No matter, the rules are the rules.

Since the twist rate in the original 86 45-90 is slower (Express)... stabilization and accuracy of even the 405 gr may be on the "edge". But since the joule (kinetic energy) standard favors velocity over mass then one of 300-350 grainers may at least come closer to reaching minimum joule. BUT, with black powder it would be unlikely that even the 300 gr could reach minimum. I really like the RCBS 300 FN, a gas checked bullet, for the application. Mine weigh about 325 with gas check and lube using an alloy of 12-14 BHN. I've shot that bullet a lot in 45-70 and 45-110 with good results, excellent accuracy but none of my guns have the slower twist of the original 45-90. But there is no reason to think it wouldn't work because that is within the bullet weight range the "Express" type loading was designed around. Even the 405 gr might stabilize well at higher velocity but may not come as close to achieving minimum joule as the 300-350 gr.

Now to get to the velocity level to reach minimum joule with the 300-350 gr. Might try starting with a load of BP and as you suggested some duplex- say 85 gr BP plus 5 gr 5744-- record pressure signs and velocity. Then slowly increase the % of 5744 and CLOSELY watch pressure signs versus velocity with each test.

I have my doubts you are going to be able to reach minimum joule with black powder as the primary charge with the small % smokeless in duplex. Maybe just "not in the cards" as they say. But who knows? Tough question to answer without having tried to do it.

[Hednign]

All of us moose hunters over here cant grasp where the 2700 Joule standard came from. Its just plain simple stupid. I might not be a law abiding citizen in the end of the test shooting. A .45 loaded with a 350grs bullet is more than good enough even propelled by blackpowder. The slow 500 grainer thrown by a trapdoor is a lot better than a 6.5x55 using a 140 grs bullet. Thats my opinion anyhow.

Ill check out that RCBS bullet you mentioned. I have the 405 grs hollow base Lee mold too. But it shouldnt work in that kind of twist. We`ll see. Ill try to get hold of different kinds of bullets and do some test shooting before I buy one. Would become rather pricy to buy them all. Maybe Ill even try that hollow tipped bullet Lyman or Lee holds. And fill that tip with a steel .22 bullet. Would be funny to see what that does in soaked telephone catalogues.

Im not sure what the standard size of the 1886 .45 bore is either, in the .459 area I guess. Ill slug it when the rifle arrives. Should be here later this week.

[405]

Both 45 cal 86s I have are approx. .459" groove diameter so are well suited to the "normal" as cast diameters dropped from regular production molds like the RCBS 300 FN GC. The gas check is part of that total equation also and is recommended for the higher velocity loadings, particularly with smokeless (or duplex loads for that matter).

Even on this side of the pond some states use minimum energy (kinetic energy) numbers for certain game. So that too tells me the "system" here was designed with the smaller caliber, high velocity/high power, jacketed bullet in mind. The game taking strong point of older cartridges with black powder and relatively heavy and slower cast bullets is their ability to penetrate... that equation is more driven by the momentum/sectional density unit.... not the kinetic energy unit. Anyway, good luck!

[JFE]

I read somewhere that not all original 86's in 45/90 had slow twists, so I'd be inclined to check the twist rate of barrel before deciding on a mould.

There are many good 45 cal designs to pick from, but the RCBS moulds suitable for leverguns are pretty good - they come in a variety of weights and have a crimp groove in the right location.

[Hednign]

Huh...I thought you guys didnt need to worry about the kinetic energy when picking your rifle or revolver for hunting. Revolver is forbidden to use for hunting over here. Only polar bear. But thats in self defense anyhow. Infact, if you are on our island Svalbard you are told by the law to carry a firearm that can kill a polar bear. If not, you will get a ticket.

Thanks a lot so far guys. I have another question though. What is the OAL to have in mind when reloading for the 86? Is it very picky about having the exact lenght to function properly?

And thanks for the heads up on the twist. Ill measure it when the time comes... And give you all a feedback and pics of the old iron when it gets here.

[405]

It's been a while since I checked the minimum energy requirements in different jurisdictions (states) but IIRC they weren't as high in those states that have that requirement as what you're describing as minimum there.... so never worried about it much.

Since the RCBS molds are somewhat expensive I understand your reluctance in sinking a bunch of money in trying different molds. In addition to the RCBS 300 FN GC mold mentioned I've had good luck with the RCBS 405 FN GC--- in the faster twist 45-70 and 45-110. In practical, terminal performance terms the 405 gr would likely work better for moose simply because of the the increased mass and sectional density. But the 2 unknowns of course are stabilization (accuracy) and meeting the kinetic energy (joule) requirements because energy units favor velocity over mass- while momentum treats mass and velocity equally. You might be able to find some 405 gr gas checked cast to try for less $ without having to invest in the mold.

As to the OAL for the 86? The recommended is 2.5"-2.6". But the 86 action length can handle OALs up to 2.88" with the caveat being nose shape coupled with OAL can determine how well a particular gun can handle and feed the longer lengths. My experience is that both those RCBS bullets (300 and 405) mentioned function well in the 86 and the nose shapes for both can be described as roundnose flatpoints.

[Doc Highwall]

Ranch Dog makes a 350 grain bullet for hunting.
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/inde...x&cPath=1_5_14

[sliphammer]

Winchester used a 1 in 36 twist in the 45-90.

[John Boy]

Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs.

Hednign, believe you can make it work with the old 385gr government bullet (457124)
A 300gr bullet with 90grs of Fg produces 1550 fps. So, change the granulation to FFg or FFFg and increase the charge to 95gr. You should be over the top of the needed joules. Even the 405gr bullet would meet the needed joule.

What I don't know is the maximum SAMMI pressure for the 45-90. The SAMMI max for the 45-70 is 28,000 psi though. On the positive side, the '86 Winchester is a huge chunk of steel to take the pressures of a 45-90

The option of a duplex load IMHO won't buy you more joules because one should be making the charges to equal that of a black powder reload

[405]

The kicker is those figures Hednign gave for minimum velocity are at 100 meters for the required energy level at 100 meters..... not muzzle velocity/muzzle energy.

Quote "That means I have to make a 300 grs bullet make 1729 fs at 100 meters. Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs. A 405 grs at 1490 fs would do it to.That means I have to make a 300 grs bullet make 1729 fs at 100 meters. Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs. A 405 grs at 1490 fs would do it to."

[NickSS]

I doubt if you can make those velocities with black powder in a 45-90. However, I know that Canadian rules allowed up to 25% smokeless powder in their long range BPCR loads back in the 90s when I shot several long range matches in British Columbia. With some load development and less black powder you can probably meet the velocity levels you are looking for. I do know that some of my Canadian shooting acquaintences rifles gave much more of a crack than a boom when they went off and did not make much smoke comparitively speaking. I do not have any loads but if you are putting a total of 90 gr of powder in the case and up to 22 gr can be smokeless you will end up with a lot more velocity than you will get with black powder. Also the 86 winchester in 45-70 is commonly loaded to 40,000 psi levels so it should not be unsafe to use a heavy duplex load.

[Hednign]

Wow....thanks guys, a lot of good reading here.

Yeah, the speed needed at 100m will be tuff to meet. Ill try a few duplex loads if pure black cant make it. However Im not going to torture the old 86. Sure its a strong design, but still. That and Im a strong beliver in using BP in guns that was meant to use BP.

I have to find the bullets mentioned and make a decision. Not many of my casting compadres has .45 molds in the lighter area. We all shoot Trapdoors and Martinis, so more or less all of our molds are in the 500 grs area. The 405 grs (Wolf) hollow base design is the lightest one arround. Ill try that one first and see how it shoots.

Canadians allow up to 25 % of smokeless??? In their BP long range competitions?

How many in here shoots MLAIC? Just curious.

[Doc Highwall]

If I remember correctly they used SR4759 powder and each grain of smokeless was equal to 5 grains of black powder.

[Hednign]

To be honest. As a black powder long range shooter myself I dont get it.... I mean, black powder long range is black powder long range. Using duplex loads is nothing but cheating. If the fouling is a problem, go pure smokeless. Fouling is a part of the BP science. Got damn it....

[NickSS]

Well I agree with you I have not fired a duplex load in over 20 years. I was just speaking from my memories of matches fired a long time ago.

[Gunlaker]

Well I agree with you I have not fired a duplex load in over 20 years. I was just speaking from my memories of matches fired a long time ago.

I wouldn't use duplex in my single shots, but they work nicely in a lever action where you don't want to wipe or blow tube....

Chris.

[Hednign]

You got a point... Thats why Im willing to try duplex in that 1886. Im not sure which powder I should choose though. Over here american powder is hard to get. We use Vihtavuori, Norma and Raufoss powder. Mostly Vihtavuori. I can get an idea by checking the burn rate chart though....

[405]

Hednign,
I understand your conundrum. Duplex isn't purist BP but to get to minimum energy you may have to try it. The two most common powders for duplex with BP are 4759 and 5744. They are very similar in nature, somewhat bulky and are used by themselves for duplicating BP velocities in large capacity cases. 4759 is slightly faster than 5744. Many powders have been used for duplexing but those are the ones I'd be most comfortable with. I've experimented with both in the 45-70 BUT only up to between 5-10% smokeless to 95-90% BP. Those loads did offer a cleaner burn and did increase velocity- so I assume also increased pressure.

My concern with going higher percentage smokeless is it gets into unknown territory about pressure. I'm unsure exactly how the internal ballistics work.... how the BP affects the pressure curve of the smokeless and how the smokeless affects the pressure curve of the BP or in other words how they interact. According to Vihtavuori the 4759 and 5744 fall in the burn rate range of V N110 - V N120. And similarly are in the range of Norma 200. I doubt their bulk densities are similar though. Also, it may make a difference within the smokeless powders which are single base and which are double base.

The 86 is a good strong action but it's not a Ruger #1 SS nor a Mauser 98 bolt gun... it's the "unknown" territory that would make me proceed with caution.

[Hednign]

I do have a pound of N110. Ill try a tiny little duplex when the time comes. Ill be very carefull. Im sure the 86 is a strong action, but I dont want to find out exactly how strong it is. If I cant make the speed right Ill use it anyhow. I dont mind that kinetic energy limit that much. In my opinion momentum is the better way of thinking.