AR15s......... Pros and Cons

[MGySgt]

The bottm line here is What do you want it for? The AR platform can be made to do a lot for you.

For the SHTF purpose - I bought a 16in S&W M&P 15. I have 20 30 round mags, the rifle will shoot 1.5 MOA with the WW 5.56 ammo I bought. Have 800 round of it left - I am good for awhile!

If you want a AR long range Varmit rig - go for it. It will do it!

A CQB - it will do it.

But the 5.56 has never been a long range killer - not enough mass - it needs the HV to do it's job - Any of us that have carried it knows that at close range - It will put a big hole where it comes out - all done by MV. If I am going past 200 give me an M14!

As long as you are pleased with what you have that is all that matters.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[82nd airborne]

[QUOTE=StarMetal;929211]Gabby,



You haven't worked with enough AR 15's if you haven't seen a barrel nut or barrel come loose.

Ive lived with AR's for a long time, and not using them like we use them here, also used as clubs, crutches, window breakers, and shooting untill the barrel is red, and ive never seen the barrel nut or barrel come loose unintentionally. ive ran black on ammo on a number of occasions, as well as almost everyone else there, and i mean ABUSED some ars. never saw one come apart. this is also with a 4 lb daytime laser, 1 lb ish ir laser, wilson combat foregrip, and a giant surefire hanging off of the rail system. Im not saying anyone is wrong, and i am under experienced as far as knowlege, but i have seen ars treated rather roughly for extended periods of times without failure. as for the guy almost getting shot by someone he shot twice, ive never seen a hajji keep going after one GOOD hit from the 5.56mm. and i cleared saddar city after no coalition forces had entered it in 18 months. we took 16 casulties the first day, and the hajjis about 20 times that. after two resupply convoys in 12 hours, still never saw one fail, or saw someone keep going after a propper hit.
aaron

[Lloyd Smale]

same here. I dont know how many thousands of rounds ive put through my ars in 223 762x39 308 and 50 beo in civilian and military use, but I know it has to be near a million and ive never had a barrel nut come loose on mine. Other then springs getting weak a broken firing pin spring extractors wearing and the stocks comming loose ive havent had another problem. Mine have been dammed fine weapons and very reliable. Now all of mine are 20 inch or shorter though, but a couple are decorated like a christmas tree.

[82nd airborne]

I got hit with an IED a few years aga (which ended my military career) it broke the aimpoint off of its base on my m4, broke the rail system, caved in the side of my m2 .50, broke my lower back all up, slipped six discs in my neck/back, lodged shrapnel in my throat, but the m4 was still serviceable!

[StarMetal]

A student, on arrival at the Swamp phase of Ranger School, showed him his M4 and said “my barrel fell off”. His punishment for not telling an instructor at the Mountain phase (the previous phase) about the broken M4 was to be given a M240, which weights 27 lbs, as a replacement.


This all started when the barrel was installed and it was tightened a bit too much, causing the anodizing to crack

[StarMetal]

I got hit with an IED a few years aga (which ended my military career) it broke the aimpoint off of its base on my m4, broke the rail system, caved in the side of my m2 .50, broke my lower back all up, slipped six discs in my neck/back, lodged shrapnel in my throat, but the m4 was still serviceable!

Sorry to hear that happen to you. I sincerely hope you fully recovered and don't have any lingering medical after effects. Thank you for your service too.

[82nd airborne]

Sorry to hear that happen to you. I sincerely hope you fully recovered and don't have any lingering medical after effects. Thank you for your service too.

Thankyou sir, Im alright, i get paid for the pain that I am left with, but I'll never complain about it, as some of the best men to have walked this earth either never came home, or came home a lot worse than me, they are the ones who really made a sacrifice, and if the description fits any of you, i will gladly help any way i can, my hat is off to you.
aaron

[mike in co]

The bottm line here is What do you want it for? The AR platform can be made to do a lot for you.

For the SHTF purpose - I bought a 16in S&W M&P 15. I have 20 30 round mags, the rifle will shoot 1.5 MOA with the WW 5.56 ammo I bought. Have 800 round of it left - I am good for awhile!

If you want a AR long range Varmit rig - go for it. It will do it!

A CQB - it will do it.

But the 5.56 has never been a long range killer - not enough mass - it needs the HV to do it's job - Any of us that have carried it knows that at close range - It will put a big hole where it comes out - all done by MV. If I am going past 200 give me an M14!

As long as you are pleased with what you have that is all that matters.

Just my 2 cents worth.

the problem with your description is that it is military based...us civilians dont have to shoot fmj bullets........

kinda silly to stop at 200 with a properly equipt ar15.....even the mil has designated marksmen shooting 77's in "tighter" scoped ar's...and they don't stop at 200....

yep you are living in the past
and skip the m14 and just go with a nice ar10....much better than the old 14.

[StarMetal]

I have found my 7 twist Colt HBAR to be deadly as far as 375 yards on varmints......and that was with the Nam issue 55 grain FMJ cannelure bullets. So that is showing that it has enough energy and velocity left to cause a FMJ to cause lots of damage. I also believe the faster twist aids in that damage.

[Lloyd Smale]

Money just doesnt seem like enough payment for what you did and what you have to endure for the rest of your life. If there is anything i can ever personaly do JUST ASK!!!

Thankyou sir, Im alright, i get paid for the pain that I am left with, but I'll never complain about it, as some of the best men to have walked this earth either never came home, or came home a lot worse than me, they are the ones who really made a sacrifice, and if the description fits any of you, i will gladly help any way i can, my hat is off to you.
aaron

[3006guns]

My experience with the AR platform is outdated and limited, BUT....

I bought one of the first Colt AR15 sporters to hit the market back in the early 70's. Couldn't wait to get my hands on that black, racy looking beauty! Took it out to the Nevada desert and started popping away........was very impressed with the cartridge, but the gun rattled when shaken and the trigger pull-disconnector was the worst I'd ever felt. All that and, well, it was PLASTIC. I just plain didn't like it, so it was traded off not too long after. Kinda wish I'd stayed with it though, as I only paid $229.00 brand new!

[82nd airborne]

Lloyd Smale, the money dosnt make it better, just seems to justify it a little i guess, thanks for you sincere hospitality, i'll keep that in mind.

[MGySgt]

the problem with your description is that it is military based...us civilians dont have to shoot fmj bullets........

kinda silly to stop at 200 with a properly equipt ar15.....even the mil has designated marksmen shooting 77's in "tighter" scoped ar's...and they don't stop at 200....

yep you are living in the past
and skip the m14 and just go with a nice ar10....much better than the old 14.

Probably am 'Living in the Past' - My Pappy always told me 'If it wasn't broke - Don't fix it'.
A big part of survival is dealing with familiar objects - I know what to do with an M-14. I like the weight and feel of it on a longer rang sight picture.

Yes a lot of individuals load up an AR platform with all kinds of do dads with brings the weight up. Then we get into what was already discssed here - is that too much weight on the barrel nut ang receiver.

I learned to shoot long range with a tight sling. Try that with a M-16/AR-15. I have tried a tight sling in the prone and have watched the front sight move to the left when I flexed in position pulling the front of the rifle left. That can't be good for the receiver. We were later told to use a light sling, just enough for support, At 500 meter, I like a good tight position easier to get hits once you obtrain your natural point of aim. Always had trouble with the M-16 to shoot a Possible, not because the 16 wouln't do it - I just had a hard time maintaining the natural point of aim without a real tight sling.

For me - it's what works.

[StarMetal]

MGySgt

With the heavy barreled M16's and AR15's you don't have that sling problem and guarantee you that you don't with the free floats, which there are many in military configuration. I agree with you the first issued M16's in Nam had very very thin barrels.

I think the sights are very good on the current crop of M16's and AR15's. What's wrong with their two size aperture peep sight and the dial up drum rear sights and the square post front sight?

[mike in co]

Probably am 'Living in the Past' - My Pappy always told me 'If it wasn't broke - Don't fix it'.
A big part of survival is dealing with familiar objects - I know what to do with an M-14. I like the weight and feel of it on a longer rang sight picture.

Yes a lot of individuals load up an AR platform with all kinds of do dads with brings the weight up. Then we get into what was already discssed here - is that too much weight on the barrel nut ang receiver.

I learned to shoot long range with a tight sling. Try that with a M-16/AR-15. I have tried a tight sling in the prone and have watched the front sight move to the left when I flexed in position pulling the front of the rifle left. That can't be good for the receiver. We were later told to use a light sling, just enough for support, At 500 meter, I like a good tight position easier to get hits once you obtrain your natural point of aim. Always had trouble with the M-16 to shoot a Possible, not because the 16 wouln't do it - I just had a hard time maintaining the natural point of aim without a real tight sling.

For me - it's what works.

see you are right ..still living in tha past with past data...
they shoot 600 and 1000 with stock looking ar15's.
they free float the handguard assembly///you cannot do that with an m14...you can with an ar10.
an ar10 in match condition will out shoot an match m14 and do it longer.
i had the m1a full trick and sold it for an ar10...and never looked back.
trying a tight sling on the wrong rifle is just doing it wrong...the rest of the world shooting high power have no issues.
( there is nothing wrong with doing what works, but kinda silly to not get better by moving into the present)
dont mix tricked out short range combat/three gun rifles with long range target rifles. no one adds "stuff" to a cmp/dcm rifle in the stock mil class. even the mil recognizes the need for different rifles for different condiitions. that have full built scoped designated marksmen rifles and short range dot optics 16 carbines.......
you want to see a joke go look at springfields 16" m14 clone......

m14's shoot , but require more maintenance to stay there. almost no maintenance on an m16/ar15/ar10 by comparison. when your m14 bbl wears out, you send it to a gunsmith and wait. on an m16/ar15/ar10....you take the handguard off and replace the bbl...its about that easy.
there is no wood to warp as the day /temp/moisture content changes...tell that to your m14. a impregnated, laminated wood stock helps...but its still wood.

look at how easy it is to mount a SOLID scope mount on an ar platform and then the same on an m14.....the one that works cost you your stripper clip guide, so one advantage you had on the ar platform just went away.


mike in co

[c3d4b2]

We were later told to use a light sling, just enough for support, At 500 meter, I like a good tight position easier to get hits once you obtrain your natural point of aim. Always had trouble with the M-16 to shoot a Possible, not because the 16 wouln't do it - I just had a hard time maintaining the natural point of aim without a real tight sling.

I Shot the M 16 match twice at Perry. I will have to agree with what was reported. The accuracy was poor, the triggers were creepy (and had a bad break) and they were only kidding when they said light sling pressure, they really meant no sling pressure....

I was really glad to get back to my CMP match rifle. I did realize how much better the match rifles were over the standard military M16.

I agree the the upper and barrel nut assembly are the weakest links in the rifles design. However, I have been to a lot of matches with long barreled space guns and CMP rifles with weight under the handguard, and not seen or heard of any issues with the barrel nut or upper receivers. I have had one upper for approximately 10 years (with a heavy barrel and lead weight) and not had an issue. It is currently on it's 4th barrel. Of course these gun do not see any heavy duty or harsh environments.

When I started out shooting matches ~12 years ago I was looking at M14's because of the things I had heard about AR's. I went to my 1st match with a borrowed M1 and the gentleman assigned to help me (and keep me out of trouble) said I would be better off with an AR. He said an out of the box match AR from Rock River will shoot with a match conditioned M1A and will not have to go back t the gunsmith to be rebuilt every couple of years.

When I got down to the pits and saw what the guys were doing with the AR's I was truly amazed. One gal I was pulling a target for shot a ~2 inch sitting rapid fire group at 200 yards. Of course these were not the same AR's I had heard about. They had match barrels, better sights and better triggers. But they did open my eyes.

[MGySgt]

MGySgt

I think the sights are very good on the current crop of M16's and AR15's. What's wrong with their two size aperture peep sight and the dial up drum rear sights and the square post front sight?

Nothing is wrong with the sights - just that the 14 (with it's extra weight) gives me a more solid sight picture.

I even liked the M16-A1 sights once I got use to adjusting them, they give a good sight picture but I wasn't and still am not as steady for longer range sights.

[MGySgt]

see you are right ..still living in tha past with past data...
they shoot 600 and 1000 with stock looking ar15's.....................

I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. What percentage of us are going to build a rifle for Camp Perry?

What percent is going to build a rifle for 3 gun?

What percent is going to buy (or build) the AR because it is a darn good weapon for plinking, maybe some varmits (ones that fly or have four legs), home defense- 2 legged varmits (adding or being able to add a flashlight or laser makes sense) and any insurgency that crops up here at home it is still going to do them justice. If they stick with the 5.56 (as long as the US forces still use it) they will be able to scrounge ammo to keep it running.

We, at least I won't, join any group against our gov, but I will defend my self and my family if someone or group attempt to do us harm.

The Average Joe isn't looking for a sniper type rifle to shoot 300 - 1000 yards. Most of us don't have an oppurtunity to shoot much past 300. How many of us have had the training to dope the wind and mirage over the field/pastures to make a hit?

I bought the 16in version because it is light, short, easy to swing, you can walk down a hallway (passageway to Marines and Sailors) and not poke evry little thing walking through your house or urban environment in the dark.

I know I can hit with it at 300 - 600, but that is not what I bought it for.

These are my reasons and justification to me why I bought it.

Mike in CO - you have different reasons and purpose for yours.

Just for the record - My last year to qualify with the M16 - I used the A2 model - sights were easier to adjust, but we were still told to use a loose sling (I always thought it was the receiver, not the barrel is why the loose sling) and my score was about the same as it had been with the A1 - mid range Expert.

I still think the M16 is an excellent battle rifle for the average Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman. They are easier to shoot accurately in the offhand or high kneeling, quick recovery for aimed 2nd or 3rd shoot if needed (keep shooting until the bad guy is on the ground - then shoot him again - even with the 7.62).

Getting long winded in my old age.

These are my thoughts from my experience - yours may be completly different.

[c3d4b2]

I always thought it was the receiver, not the barrel is why the loose sling

The barrel diameter under the hand guard has a smaller diameter than the muzzle. I belive this was so a grenade launcher could be installed.

Below is a link to a picture of the barrel profile.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Photo...M-BRL-s-20+STD

[mike in co]

Nothing is wrong with the sights - just that the 14 (with it's extra weight) gives me a more solid sight picture.

I even liked the M16-A1 sights once I got use to adjusting them, they give a good sight picture but I wasn't and still am not as steady for longer range sights.

sorry...again comparing apples to oranges.

try a match ar15 for weight and say that again...they move the weight right up there.