Why NOT quench?

[swallytrip]

Too much hardness can increase the chance of leading. 45 ACP requires almost exactly the hardness that Wheel Weights deliver air cooled (with or without a little added solder).

Another factor is that the water quenched boolits will loose their extra hardness over a few years.

If you like water quenching and it works for you and your gun, go for it. I do it myself, but not for every boolit, just those that need it.

-HF

Few years ? man I'm lucky to have mine a few days.

[Char-Gar]

I think you need to do whatever you want to do, and that includes quenching if that is what tickles your fancy. Do it and then you will know whether or not it is a good idea. Asking questions on Internet boards will give you opinions but not experience. At the end of the day, it is experience that will make you a savy bullet caster/handloader.

[Lavid2002]

Yes ....but right now im filling *This* Space


Ordering my equipment< *This* < Casting

: )

[MtGun44]

Lavid2002 said "If it will help prevent the possibility of leading"

This is FALSE! Harder DOES NOT prevent the possibility of leading!!

You can lead with hard and lead with soft, leading IS NOT PREVENTED BY HARDER BOOLITS
as a general principle.

We keep having to stomp on this darned old wives tale, which keeps being sold
by the (frequently completely ignorant) commercial casters.

Water drop if you want, don't if you want, makes no difference to me. I find absolutely
no benefit in pistol loads to water quench. I do not get leading at .44 Mag or .357 mag
maximum velocities with good boolit designs, good fit and good lubricants. GCs are also
a bandaid for poor design, fit or lube. Not that GCs don't work, they do. However they
add cost, time and fiddlyness (if that is a word) to the process and are absolutely not
necessary in any regular or magnum pistol that I have ever tried - which is almost all
calibers of normal pistols. GCs are a real benefit for rifles at velocities above the highest
that you can really obtain in the magnum pistols (I have not worked with .500 mag or
the new S&W super .45 on the X-frame, I forget what it is called) - maybe GC or hard
boolits are required there, pressures and velocities have much more in common with
rifles than pistols with these calibers. Obviously, 7-08 in pistol (I have one) needs a
GC if you are going to run it at 2000 or better, again - really a rifle round.

DESIGN --- FIT -- LUBE ---- and if you want to try hardness, some have reported improved
accuracy. I do not say they are wrong, just that none of my guns have showed it to me.

As to 'just as easy' --- RIGHT, hauling around a bucket of water, fishing out wet boolits,
drying them off, etc is JUST AS EASY as dropping them on a towel and then putting them
in a box. Hockeypucky. But it is a free country, have at it, enjoy the hobby and do what
you think works best for YOU. No complaints from me, but I will reserve the right to see
it from a different point of view.

Bill

[fredj338]

It's both easier and perfectly safe to water drop in a bucket on the floor, with the pot on the bench.

I cast both ways, but don't get the "Easier" part of water dropping. I drop ont a folded towel, actually easier as the bench I cast on is the same height as the paltform I drop onto. The bucket is on the floor, not easier IMO. Water dropping is just not needed w/ slower moving 45acp, but if you like doing it, more power to ya.

[armyrat1970]

Lavid2002 said "If it will help prevent the possibility of leading"

This is FALSE! Harder DOES NOT prevent the possibility of leading!!

You can lead with hard and lead with soft, leading IS NOT PREVENTED BY HARDER BOOLITS
as a general principle.

We keep having to stomp on this darned old wives tale, which keeps being sold
by the (frequently completely ignorant) commercial casters.

Water drop if you want, don't if you want, makes no difference to me. I find absolutely
no benefit in pistol loads to water quench. I do not get leading at .44 Mag or .357 mag
maximum velocities with good boolit designs, good fit and good lubricants. GCs are also
a bandaid for poor design, fit or lube. Not that GCs don't work, they do. However they
add cost, time and fiddlyness (if that is a word) to the process and are absolutely not
necessary in any regular or magnum pistol that I have ever tried - which is almost all
calibers of normal pistols. GCs are a real benefit for rifles at velocities above the highest
that you can really obtain in the magnum pistols (I have not worked with .500 mag or
the new S&W super .45 on the X-frame, I forget what it is called) - maybe GC or hard
boolits are required there, pressures and velocities have much more in common with
rifles than pistols with these calibers. Obviously, 7-08 in pistol (I have one) needs a
GC if you are going to run it at 2000 or better, again - really a rifle round.

DESIGN --- FIT -- LUBE ---- and if you want to try hardness, some have reported improved
accuracy. I do not say they are wrong, just that none of my guns have showed it to me.

As to 'just as easy' --- RIGHT, hauling around a bucket of water, fishing out wet boolits,
drying them off, etc is JUST AS EASY as dropping them on a towel and then putting them
in a box. Hockeypucky. But it is a free country, have at it, enjoy the hobby and do what
you think works best for YOU. No complaints from me, but I will reserve the right to see
it from a different point of view.

Bill

As I posted a reply before. I tend to agree with all of your sentiments.

[Bret4207]

Not much I can add to Bills post either. It's personal preference. Some people stick to doing things one way forever, others try different things all the time. Do what pleases you. FIT IS KING with cast, that's all there is to it. the one hard and fast rule. Everything else follows.

[44man]

Lavid2002 said "If it will help prevent the possibility of leading"

This is FALSE! Harder DOES NOT prevent the possibility of leading!!

You can lead with hard and lead with soft, leading IS NOT PREVENTED BY HARDER BOOLITS
as a general principle.

We keep having to stomp on this darned old wives tale, which keeps being sold
by the (frequently completely ignorant) commercial casters.

Water drop if you want, don't if you want, makes no difference to me. I find absolutely
no benefit in pistol loads to water quench. I do not get leading at .44 Mag or .357 mag
maximum velocities with good boolit designs, good fit and good lubricants. GCs are also
a bandaid for poor design, fit or lube. Not that GCs don't work, they do. However they
add cost, time and fiddlyness (if that is a word) to the process and are absolutely not
necessary in any regular or magnum pistol that I have ever tried - which is almost all
calibers of normal pistols. GCs are a real benefit for rifles at velocities above the highest
that you can really obtain in the magnum pistols (I have not worked with .500 mag or
the new S&W super .45 on the X-frame, I forget what it is called) - maybe GC or hard
boolits are required there, pressures and velocities have much more in common with
rifles than pistols with these calibers. Obviously, 7-08 in pistol (I have one) needs a
GC if you are going to run it at 2000 or better, again - really a rifle round.

DESIGN --- FIT -- LUBE ---- and if you want to try hardness, some have reported improved
accuracy. I do not say they are wrong, just that none of my guns have showed it to me.

As to 'just as easy' --- RIGHT, hauling around a bucket of water, fishing out wet boolits,
drying them off, etc is JUST AS EASY as dropping them on a towel and then putting them
in a box. Hockeypucky. But it is a free country, have at it, enjoy the hobby and do what
you think works best for YOU. No complaints from me, but I will reserve the right to see
it from a different point of view.

Bill

This is entirely correct, leading has nothing to do with hardness.
Hardness controls accuracy where needed in some guns.
If you push soft lead wrong it will lead WORSE, push it right and even pure will not lead the bore.
I find a PB just needs to be harder so the base band takes the rifling without a leak.
If you want accuracy you do not want any boolit expansion, slump or skidding so you need to control hardness for your application.
My water bucket is off to the side on a short stool so I don't have to bend over, just turn and drop.
Then remember a drop of water on top of lead is not dangerous anyway. Only if it gets under the surface will it blow out lead as it turns to steam. Been doing it for years and I still keep the bucket off to the side, away from the pot just in case.
Real heavy BPCR boolits are still dropped on rags because they are too soft and heavy even falling through water.
If you tell anyone hard lead will lead the bore, you are entirely wrong. You have something else wrong to start with.
Water dropped WW's do not change the composition of the lead but it toughens the surface enough to grip rifling.
You should thank the lead Gods that you have some control to match what your gun likes.
I would prefer a skin, the depth of rifling, as hard as copper, with a core of soft lead. But they do make jacketed boolits that solve all of that!

[Lavid2002]

OK Just read some pretty good articles a google search brought up about it. Just had a gunsmith at work tell me if I can scratch it with my nail it will lead my bore. He said it was all about hardness. . . . Makes me questions peoples credentials on other things lol

[Black Wolf]

I water quench everything (I mainly use WWs); except - pure lead bullets for my BP firearms and also my bullets for my Vetterli rifles. Both are air cooled. BP firearms use soft lead, and the Vetterli shoots fine with air cooled WWs (not too hard and not too soft).

[Blammer]

Blammer mentions he's never culled because of dents. With bevel base boolits dents are very unlikely to cause a problum.

Move to a flat based boolit like the 429421 or 358429 and denting on the edge of the boolit base becomes a real possiblity.

I cast a huge pile of 429421's and several other big 44 plain bases. I also finished casting several hundred of the 503 HP's with that star HP on it with the "tender'' nose HP edges. No dent's no rejects. I even cast a large pile of 326407's the loverin style with all them little lube grooves, no dent's on them. If you're denting boolits to the point of rejecting them by dropping them out of the mould 4" on to a pile of boolits I'd be surprised.

And I only have ONE bevel base boolit I cast, and I just got that one recently.


David, your 'gunsmith' don't know squat about lead cast boolits being shot out of guns. I'd ask that gunsmith about jacketed bullets, you can't scratch them with your nail yet they leave a deposit in the barrel. See what he says.

[man.electric]

Try casting both ways and see which one you prefer to shoot. If there is no noticeable difference between the two, stick with what works best for you. If you think that water quenched boolits work better, then shoot only water quenched. The only guaranteed thing in casting is that the more confidence you have in you ammunition, the better you will shoot.

[82nd airborne]

i use a 3 gal bucket 3/4 full then put about four inches of packing penuts on top of the water, keeps them from splashing, and slows them down a little. if i the gun im casting for likes air cooled boolits, i wont mess with the extra step.

[1Shirt]

Like Lloyd S says, try it, trial and error teaches a lot. It is good to see Ricochet back!
1Shirt!

[fredj338]

OK Just read some pretty good articles a google search brought up about it. Just had a gunsmith at work tell me if I can scratch it with my nail it will lead my bore. He said it was all about hardness. . . . Makes me questions peoples credentials on other things lol

HA! Gunsmiths are NOT ammo ro relaoding or casting intelligent. I have run 25-1LHP @ 1250fps w/ little to no leading, pretty soft. YOu can even run pure lead bullets to 1000fps w/ no leading (maybe faster, haven't tried).

[jbremount]

There definitely is a place for water quenching bullets if you shoot homemade cast bullets. Water quenching bullets toughen the surface of the bullets so that the rifling can grip it much better. FWIK, just air cooled bullets are a BHN of approx. 10-13. The same bullets, water quenched, can get up to 18 BHN factor. If you cast to save money, water quenching is a very inexpensive way to get a harder bullet. The harder water quenched bullet makes a difference if you are shooting velocities over 1000 fps from a pistol with a fast twist(1/9xx twist) and high pressures round like the 9mm. The harder water quenched bullets completely solved my problem by allowing the rifling to grip the bullet better. Better grip on the bullet and no leading .(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...t=80534&page=4)

[Bret4207]

Your gunnysmith is just repeating what he believes, he means well. We've put a lot of old wives tales to bed here. This "hardness" tale is one that keeps coming back. FIT COMES FIRST. Then you play with lubes, alloy (Bhn), seating depth and all the other stuff in the search for the ultimate fit with that boolit in that gun.

[troy_mclure]

i cant quench cause i have too much arsenic in my alloy. it leaves shavings in the barrel if i water drop, but not air drop.

[Bass Ackward]

The biggest misrepresentation that this board has never put to rest is that not all leading (fouling) negatively affects accuracy. Just like not all coopering will destroy groups. Someone who works up their loads after fouling regardless of the metal type generally has more freedom or I should say longer shot string accuracy year round because they are riding metal to metal of the same type.

We learn as kids that if you want a screw NOT to back out that you use lock washers or what ever, when the best thing is to use a different material from your hole such as brass in steel.

Is lead, or copper for that matter, any different to steel?

The problem with lead comes from personal preference. If, and there is always a when eventually, you are forced to clean for some reason, then you have to fire enough slugs to foul the barrel again to return to the accuracy. And because it is hard to clean or requires cleaning period, is the fact that we search for the bullet, lube, hardness that WILL NOT lead. Truth for cast is that everything leads .... eventually anyway.

That is the cross this board bears. It is why there are humpteen different opinions on everything that is discussed. And if someone has a different opinion, which was derived from their trials and errors, then you ain't gonna change it with a board discussion no matter how many "facts" you throw at it. That fella is simply glad he has something that works for him.

RPMs or high velocity comes to mind here. Until somebody is able to reproduce something for themselves, they are just fine where they are at. And they will develop theories to go faster until they give up. Then theories why they can not. Same with hard or soft.

And at the basis for that position or every other one this board discusses starts with the assumption that zero leading is possible or even desireable. Which is technically false.

[waksupi]

i cant quench cause i have too much arsenic in my alloy. it leaves shavings in the barrel if i water drop, but not air drop.

I suspect the antimony isn't the problem there. Size and lube, more likely.