Help ! 40 S &W

[pt4u2nv]

If your notes are accurate with this information you overcharged these loads by 1.0 full grain according to Accurate Powders website. Gold Dots and XTPs are typically similar (large hollowpoint, deeply seated compared to traditional designs).

On page 5 of the free PDF the 180 gr XTP start charge for AA#7 is 7.7 gr and max charge is 8.5 gr ~34,600 PSI. Not sure what pressure was reached but it probably was closer to rifle pressures (50K+) and explains the faded headstamp and primer flattening.

Alan

Interesting...... Page 536 of Speers Number 12 Manual says 8.7 min, 9.7 max on AA#7 for the Speer 180gr GDHP. I looked up Accurates data after you said this and I agree the Accurate Manual that you stated is 7.7 to 8.5...What goes here ???!!!!Kinda dangerous if you ask me, wonder who is right. Chrony records from back then do show 1200 FPS avg. which is high after looking at it a little closer compared to approx 972 in Speers book. I had been having trouble with my old Chrony not working right and just assumed I was getting high readings unfounded.....should have trusted what I was getting by the looks of it. I never got the chance to check the cast boolits, I am betting they will be high also.

[randyrat]

In the Speer load data book these loads are for Speer bullets ONLY. You'll find this throughout the speer manual and you'll find some of the hotest loads here. The data can be used ONLY if you work the loads up.
When they state the bullet they mean that specific bullet.

Work your loads up because each gun is different. You've heard it before.

[afrance]

I thought possibly it was numbers being transposed during final editing of the manual. I just checked an older 2002 version of Accurate's load data and that has the same as the current PDF online.

Does anyone have Speer's #13 or #14 and can check if they are still quoting the higher powder charge or now closer to the Accurate numbers?

[mpmarty]

Speer #13 page 545:
180gr tmj or gdhp
aa7 powder
8.7 start 895fps
9.7 max 972fps

[mpmarty]

Same reference max velocity w/ 180gr bullet is with HS-7 9.3gr 1027fps

[pt4u2nv]

In the Speer load data book these loads are for Speer bullets ONLY. You'll find this throughout the speer manual and you'll find some of the hotest loads here. The data can be used ONLY if you work the loads up.
When they state the bullet they mean that specific bullet.

Work your loads up because each gun is different. You've heard it before.

Agree,..But I have to apoligize in that the 180 I was loading was the GDHP not the XTP. I did work it up slowly at .1 gr at a time so that should not be an issue. Not sure yet where my high pressue is coming from especially since the later versions of the Speer state the same load !!!! I am definetly going to drop in down a bit under Speers min and se what happens. I will deal with the cast boolit issue once I get the j bullets under control. I have a friend with a 40 Smith that he is going to let me borrow to check throat dia and such to compare with mine to see if anything is way out of sinc.

[afrance]

Thanks Marty for the confirmation of #13.

I just sent Speer this question through their Ask Speer online form. Once I get clarification I will post it here.

Alan

[hydraulic]

PT: I shoot a .40 Sigma also. I use the old Lyman 40143 .38-40 mould, bullet sized .401, air cooled wheel weights, 5 grs. of Unique. This load shoots accurately, operates the action smartly, no signs of pressure, no problems. Brass is range pickups from Forest Service LEO's, mostly Winchester. Have no idea what the chrono says, don't care, doesn't matter.

[pt4u2nv]

PT: I shoot a .40 Sigma also. I use the old Lyman 40143 .38-40 mould, bullet sized .401, air cooled wheel weights, 5 grs. of Unique. This load shoots accurately, operates the action smartly, no signs of pressure, no problems. Brass is range pickups from Forest Service LEO's, mostly Winchester. Have no idea what the chrono says, don't care, doesn't matter.

What weight is this bullet ? I am looking for loads for Cast using Unique and they seem really difficult to come by. Also what COL are you setting them at . Thanks

[randyrat]

I'll have to look up loads in the forty for you. I used a ton of Unique, clays, Red dot, IMR4756 (great accuracy), #5..... I wrote everything down. I'll see what i can come up with in my notes. All pistols are different so they may or may not help you.
You have to use "comigulationizm" to come up with loads in the forty/cast and a chronograph helps also.

One load i do remember was 3.2 grs of Clays and a 200 gr bullet(not cast), the most accurate load i ever shot with the forty.

[David2011]

.405 does sound awfully big and could be raising the pressure. I size to .400 (Star sizer and custom die) and can really tell a difference if I shoot commercial cast at .401. I went with .400 because .401 failed the Dillon case gage but it still shoots well enough for IPSC.

Pressure, recoil and velocity are all higher with .401 cast boolits (compared to .400 at the same powder charge) but even at 1045 fps the Winchester primers were only starting to flatten very slightly. At 940 fps or so they don't noticably change shape. I shoot a lot of .40 S&W and see cracked cases from time to time but I assume it's from fatigue. They don't usually split all the way to the mouth, though. Most split from above the web to 1/8" or so below the mouth- the area of max pressure and work hardening. Splitting after 2 or 3 loadings sounds pretty early, though. Most of my .40 attrition is due to loss in the grass at matches and competitors who don't care that the brass is clearly marked and not theirs.

Split cases are usually pretty easy to detect. They have a distinctive ring when dropped on a wooden table that comes through even when many are dropped at once. I can even pick up the different sound sometimes in a Dillon media separator.

[hydraulic]

PT:

180 gr. bullet. I don't pay much attention to over all length. If it fits in magazine and feeds OK it's fine. I went down and measured one of the rounds and it's 1.1 in long. Of course, I don't shoot competition. I have a gong out at the ranch that I shoot at. Grandson's like to shoot. Sometimes we'll put up a target and try to shoot a better score than the rest of the family. Probably don't shoot more than 200 or 300 rds. a year. You may have loftier goals in mind than me, but this load shoots reliably and safely.

[pt4u2nv]

After really looking close at everything I found out my calibers were off zero by about .005 so my info on the bullet dia being .405 was definitely not correct , I rechecked and it is .401. I just borrowed a friends data book and his .40 so I will try a couple of his loads in my gun and mine in his w/ chrony to see what is going on.

I did notice though in checking some of his loaded rounds that the base of his are around .415 and mine are anywhere from .425 to .430. A definite little bulge in mine. I took some unloaded ( by me) once fired brass and started loading some more with my cast vs commercial cast , same powder charge, variations of primers etc. to see if I can find anything out there. Just alittle too cold to shoot right now but hoping it will change a little by the weekend.

[243winxb]

Check you powder scale while your at it.

After really looking close at everything I found out my calibers were off zero by about .005 so my info on the bullet dia being .405 was definitely not correct

[JRR]

Buy a box of factory high performance ammo with the same weight bullet. Fire about 10-20 rounds and measure the pressure ring with a MICROMETER (not a dial caliper). Work up your load until your pressure rings are the same or slightly less than the factory.

Determine the maximum OAL that feeds and functions. This will reduce pressure a great deal and enhance accuracy.

Range brass that has been sitting out for awhile will be weakened from corrosion.

Good luck,
Jeff

[pt4u2nv]

Check you powder scale while your at it.

Powder scale is fine .....I check that a couple of times during weighing. I cannot believe the calibers were off when I ran them back to zero though. I usually, especially when I am doing alot of checking, don't run the caliber back to zero in between cases.I assumed ( which is not good) that the set screw would have held it on zero. Just happened to think about the possibilites of what could be going on and saw it was not zeroed.

[mpmarty]

Calipers are not a reliable source of measurment for our hobby. Get a good micrometer and you will be better served.

[afrance]

Got this response from Speer:

"I suspect the difference is the tested bullet. Check with Accurate to see what bullet they used in their testing. Our tests would have been with the Speer GDHP. Current Speer data show that 8.7 grs-9.7grs of AA # 7 is a tested load with our 180 gr GDHP bullet."

Still seems that a Gold Dot would take up more case volume than a traditional hollowpoint of the same weight and raise pressures, not lower them. I will check with Accurate to see what they say.

Alan

[lwknight]

It makes me to wonder, how much boolit is in the brass compared to the "J" bullets?
You really need to figure out your case capacity with each different load. If for example you are using 85% with one bullet and 95% with another, there could be radical differences.

One easy way I found to test capacity is to drop a bullet into a fired case with powder in it and see where the bullet falls to. Then add more powder till it stops at your desired seating depth. Weigh the charge and you have the 100% capacity. Divide your desired charge by the 100% charge and get the percent fill.

[pt4u2nv]

OK I did of little more "testing" of some different powders, loads etc to try to figure out this issue. Loaded up some Dardas 155 gr Cast "store bought " boolits, 155gr J Bullets, from Hornandy, and 2 different alloys of my cast boolits. BHN of 15 on one and 9 on another just to eliminate the sizing or hardness issues. Rechecked the bore dia at .401 , bullets checked at .403 . All loaded at min loads with AA#5, AA#7 and Unique. Chrony was reading from 1100 to approx 1235 FPS on all of the loads lowest being the 170 gr cast of mine. I also shot these same loads thru a friends 40 ( S&W also) His gun registered the same FPS as mine so that eliminated the issue being the gun. I also shot a few of his J bullets he loaded and got 1232 FPS on a load he chrongraphed at 1150 avg. That being said he could have also got a reading of 1232 that just showed up as a high for him and not the avg. I now have borrowed his chrony to try this weekend to see if my new chrony is just not reading correctly. If his is consistant with mine I do not know where I will go next. Note: Plans are to check a box of factory ammo at this time also.

Comment on working up the load and look for pressure signs is great but I can't get off the min load at this point with any boolits cast or J without crazy chrony readings and high pressure signs. OAL has also been played with and still no changes in readings.


This is beginning to wear on me as I have tried everthing suggested by you all and all I know and nothing seems to change the high readings. I am also going to get another gun or so of mine that I had chrongraphed with an older chrony to compare notes against the new one but I am afraid I will find the chrony is fine.