35 Whelen Twist rate dilemma?

[JesterGrin_1]

Lets Keep this going on the 35 Whelen. As Blammer has really peaked my interest in turning my Marlin XL-7 from its current 30-06 chambering to the 35 Whelen or the 35 Whelen Improved?

I have gone through many posts here on this round and wish we could have one thread that would really get into the correct Die's that would be needed? What case would be best to convert to 35 Whelen or Imp? As well as Boolit designs even though I am sure many have been talked about in great length here.

This Rifle will be used for hunting so even though I have read that many pistol boolits can be used for plinking or small game I would like to stick to the 200+ Gr Boolits made for the rifle.

Some thoughts on this would be GREAT.

[Bass Ackward]

When we go back to twist rate, I still believe that what is "necessary" to stabilize is often different from what is "convenient" to stabilize.

We just built two 35s with 16 twists just for lighter slugs. I wanted my wife to break hers in on the gentle side so I loaded up some long 267 grainers that is / was a bullet of my design. (I sold the mold) It is over 1" long. The point here is that I used a Lee dipper to throw in and around 13 grains of 4759 for a whopping 1050 to 1130 fps.

Her results were 1 1/2" class results for 50 rounds at 100 yards from a new barrel. These were simply meant to be bore polishers lubed with LLA and I was expecting and warned her of terrible results. So I loaded some more and moved it on out to 200 yards and darned if she wasn't in the 4" class for groups. Considering that she has poor eye sight and a 6X scope, I am not convinced that this is all attributable to a .... lack of stabilization. The holes were still round.

I will test this myself after season when I get time, but this is a truly pipsqueak load that surprised the heck out of me. Maybe if driven harder and muzzle pressure kicks it at launch the spin isn't sufficient to let it recover ( ? )

It's these unexpected results that just spur more trials and get in the way of progress.

[Eutectic]

BrushBuster,

Personally, I would chose 1 in 12".

While a 14" twist might do better on paper; the 12" will do better on meat.

For game, especially where deep straight-line penetration is desirable (like moose) I would opt for the quicker 12" twist if it were me.

Eutectic

[yondering]

I have gone through many posts here on this round and wish we could have one thread that would really get into the correct Die's that would be needed? What case would be best to convert to 35 Whelen or Imp? As well as Boolit designs even though I am sure many have been talked about in great length here.

Jester, I shoot the 35 Whelen Ackley Improved in my Rem 700. It originally was the standard chamber, I had it reamed to the AI version after shooting it for a couple years. I can't really quantify how much extra velocity I get from the improved version, it isn't a lot; the big difference is case life. I'm using a batch of brass right now that has about 10 loads on it, with no trimming, and no neck annealing, since the first time when it was new.

I'm using remington 35 Whelen brass from loaded ammo, but have used quite a bit of 30-06 brass, with no issues at all. I don't change my loading procedure at all; 30-06 brass goes into the sizing die, and comes out as 35 Whelen brass, in one pass. I use RCBS dies for both the standard and improved Whelen chamberings.

I also would choose the 1-14 twist if I rebarreled. My factory Remington barrel (1-16) stabilizes 250gr boolits just fine, but the 1-14 would work a little better for the 275-300gr boolits.

Regarding recoil, it really is subjective, but a lot of it has to do with stock design. A good straight comb stock with a good recoil pad in a hunting weight 35 Whelen bolt gun really doesn't kick that hard, especially with the lighter cast boolit loads some are talking about here. I use the Hogue overmolded stock and shoot 250gr boolits at ~2600-2650 fps with no complaints. You know the gun goes off, for sure, but it's not considerably different than full power 30-06. It has a muzzle brake on it, which really does wonders with jacketed bullets, but I remove that for my heavy paper patch loads because the brake snags on the paper and ruins accuracy.

[felix]

Eutectic, don't forget the fish tail effect of 16 versus 12 twist in the 323 versus the 308 in killing soft skinned game. ... felix

[BrushBuster]

After a great deal of advice, I'm expecting my rebarreled M-1917 (Remington) with a 1:14 twist in the mail. I opted for stainless, and the 1:12 wasn't available. I'm very confident that this barrel will be just the ticket, and the only variation from normal was for the gunsmith to provide an extra .050" throat length to better accommodate the bore-riding dimensions of the 358009 and 358318 boolits from Night Owl Enterprises that I'll be shooting pretty exclusively. Velocities of 2500-2600 fps. will be ideal with these 250-280 grainers, and likely my personal limit.

I'm not much of a technical guy, but after experiencing the difference in killing power achieved after moving up from the 30-30 to the .35 Remington, I'm convinced that the Whelen will achieve a similar gain over the original 30-06 calibre. Some benefits just don't show up in the statistics, and both the .35 Remington and the Whelen are super efficient cartridges. The most bang for the buck!

[waksupi]

I have both 1-12, and 1-14 in .358 Win. Both seem to shoot as accurately. However, I do see a bit of stability issues at the higher end of velocity in the 1-14. I haven't tried all my different designs in both rifles. But, on the boolit I have been shooting most this summer, tends to start tipping at 100 yards as the barrel heats up. I suspect some of this may be borderline bullet fit, and may be cured with going .001 larger. With the 1-12 twist, I have always had very good groups with the Bator heavy, 358009 semi-clone, regardless of rate of fire.

[GBertolet]

I have a 35 Whelen Imp. on a Winchester P17 Enfield. I have a Douglas 1-12 twist barrel on it and it shoots great. I have a brake on it which I detach for cast bullets. I only have 2 molds, Lyman 358315 @ 205gr and the Saeco # 352 @ 245gr. According to the Greenhill's formula chart I have, the 1-12 twist definitely overstabilizes most bullets. My chart says max bullet weight is 375 gr and 1.60 bullet length for this twist in 35 caliber. Despite this, it still shoots good. I don't think the twist rate between 1-12 and 1-14 really matters. It's the individual barrel that's the deceiding factor. By the way, the chart says for the 1-14 twist the max bullet weight is 322 gr and max bullet length is .138 inches. Still a bit over stabilized!

[Freischütz]

When my Whelen was built heavy bullets were the norm. My standard bullet weighed 250 gr. For serious shooting I used 300 gr Barnes copper jacketed ( .049” jacket thickness I believe).

I had a choice of 1 in 16 or 1 in 12 twist. My 35 Win was 1 in 12, and I liked how it performed. I wanted to be sure and properly stabilize 300 gr, so, the Whelen's barrel was 1 in 12. No bullet stability problems there.

I would maximize my choices by using a twist that would stabilize any bullet available. That way you'll never come up short.

[Frank46]

Blammer, don't let Ben our resident in alabama see that mold, he's got himself a ruger #1 in 35 whelan and he'd be ticlkled pink to try that one out. Frank

[MT Gianni]

L
I have gone through many posts here on this round and wish we could have one thread that would really get into the correct Die's that would be needed? What case would be best to convert to 35 Whelen or Imp? As well as Boolit designs even though I am sure many have been talked about in great length here.
.

I bought some 35 Whelen stuff from Ben the former telephone Lineman in Colorado. Much of it was 270 brass necked up to 35. I have used LC brass which leaves a bit of a short neck but shoots OK. 35 Whelen brass is out there if you can find it and wish to pay for it. I suggest necking from 270 to '06 then 35 W but have done it in one step with a couple of split necks.
Boolit designs for deer should include the 358627 220 gr Keith and the RCBS 200fp. I don't see the advantage of plinking with a gc pistol boolit and I have plenty of guns to shoot a 150 gr pb wadcutter in. I can pack one on my hip if I choose to shoot a grouse or rabbit.

[snowwolfe]

R.C. Hatter:


Getting back to the 220 Nosler Partition, this is one fine bullet, and I have loaded them in my sons 7mm Mauser. This bullet turned his deer rifle into an effective moose killer which was seen clearly when he made a one-shot kill at 250 yards. If I was planning on shooting jacketed bullets, they would likely be the Nosler Partition.
Thanks for your input. Best Regards
(BrushBuster)
here's last years moose: RCBS 35-200 ACWW

I found your post very informative and thank you. But are you sure about the 7mm 220 grain Partitions?

BTW, I am in the final stages of completing my Whelen. It is built on a stainless Montana Rifle Company action with a Lilja 1-12 barrel sitting in a McMillan stock and wearing a 2.5x8 Leupold. Unfortunately the rig just went back to McMillan due to a poor stock fit. Love the fact most of these Whelens will hold five down. I plan on trying some of the Woodleigh 275 and 310 grain bullets when time permits. Should make some superb bullet's on our big moose and bears up here.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products...wist_rates.htm

[stocker]

snowwolfe: I think Barry was referring to Partitions in general and didn't mean to imply a 220 grain for 7mm. Think he told me they were 150's or 160's for the 7mm. I concur with him that the Partition performs very well in 7 X 57.

[curiousgeorge]

When I built my .35 Whelen I opted for the 1:12 twist as I intended to shoot nothing under 250 grains, and honestly did not even think about trying a 1:14 (DUH). A friend had a Ruger with the 1:16 at the time and it seemed to shoot the 200 grainers more accurately than the 250's. Of course this was all with the factory Rem jacked bullets. Accuracy problems probably were due more to the extra recoil than the twist rate.

I cast the 358009 (around 285 - 290 grs) and load to 2000 fps with IMR-3031. On my '98 action with a 24" med / heavy barrel (9 lb gun with scope) and a GOOD recoil pad, recoil is about like my .30-06. Hornady or Speer 250 gr jacketed bullets at 2500 fps accuracy approx 1 1/2" at 100 for 3 shots. Cast bullets run closer to 2" at 100 yds. Never shot anything larger than whitetails, but either bullet does a number on them. The cast loads seem to penetrate exceptionally well.

And why a 250 gr or 300 gr bullet for deer? Practice. Still keeping my fingers crossed to get drawn for a Kentucky elk hunt. Maybe some day.

[JesterGrin_1]

Ok maybe you can give me some input on this. The Marlin XL-7 is roughly 300.oo plus a barrel for 400.00 plus for a rifle ready to go of around 7 to 800.oo Bucks. Where as I can get a very good shape Remington that has a factory Barrel for the 35 Whelen for around 600.00.

And in the end I will just have a Marlin with an aftermarket barrel which I do not think it would raise the value of the rifle any.

So since I have never changed a barrel on anything and have only used the barrel that was put on them from the factory what would be the advantage of changing a Marlin XL-7 from 30-06 to a 35 Whelen or 35 Whelen improved over that of being able to purchase a factory rifle made for that round?

Thank You

[Blammer]

with the marlin, you would then have a switch barrel rifle.

[Bass Ackward]

Ok maybe you can give me some input on this. The Marlin XL-7 is roughly 300.oo plus a barrel for 400.00 plus for a rifle ready to go of around 7 to 800.oo Bucks. Where as I can get a very good shape Remington that has a factory Barrel for the 35 Whelen for around 600.00.

Thank You

I see the problem here. You are wanting to ensure that you have resale value. There is one easy way to cover this for you.

You will WANT to be buried with that rifle. Plain and simple, if you get what you want, you are going to be so impressed that it will either go with you or be handed down.

Either way, resale is NOT a factor. Don't believe me, ask the others. I still have three 35W and a 35 remington and I will inherit a fourth 35W with no desire to sell anything.

[JesterGrin_1]

Maybe I put the question a bit the wrong way lol.

Will an aftermarket barrel such as a Douglas or whomever give that much better accuracy and shootablity over a rifle made from the factory chambered in 35 Whelen or Imp?

If my Marlin with an aftermarket barrel will be a better shooter and more accurate then that is the way I should proceed.


I just have to add this. The Marlin XL-7 in 30-06 I have right now is a GREAT shooter. I darn near fell off of the shooting bench when the rifle out of the box other than a good cleaning before hand shot groups with factory rounds of 3/4 in or less at 100 yards and with my loads a bit smaller. So If I do this I will get another XL-7 just for the barrel change and not even shoot it lol. If I do I may like it too much lol.

Yes I know I will shoot the darn thing lol.

[Bass Ackward]

Will an aftermarket barrel such as a Douglas or whomever give that much better accuracy and shootablity over a rifle made from the factory chambered in 35 Whelen or Imp? lol.

If you are happy shooting light bullets, then a factory Remington is probably ........ good enough. They are 16 twist. If you want to shoot heavies, or lop the barrel off to 18" then any manufacturer that sells a 12 twist will do better.

The problem is that the way Remington standardized the 35 Whelen, you have .250 of freebore to deal with. IF that freebore causes you to fill it, then you will need about 230 grains to do so. If that throat cleans up and walks out a little farther as the tool marks from chambering are removed, then you will need a heavier bullet that eventually out runs your 16 twist rate.

So what you need to do is anticipate the worst of all worlds and go with as heavy a bullet that you think that you might need, then plan to use a twist rate that will stabilize that.

14 is the standard compromise that all the old timers established 80 years ago or so.

[JesterGrin_1]

Ok BA I guess I will keep looking into a Barrel for the 35 Whelen Imp as I think I have been going blind with Google looking that stuff up lol. It seems as though the brass for the 35 Whelen lasts longer than the standard 35 whelen chambering or so I have read?

And you are also correct that I would like to shoot 250Gr and above in cast.

And this is all Blammer's Fault lol. But I like it lol. As I took out my reloading books to look up the aspects for the 35 Whelen and it looks like a good 250 yard shooter and beyound with good knockdown power.