Bored - so here's 3 more favorites

[Gee_Wizz01]

My Dad carried an M1 carbine in WWII. He loved it, but he was B-24 crew chief and also flew flight engineer on various occasions. He trained with an 03 Springfield which he loved. In Hawaii he was issued a Thompson, which he hated. He disliked the Thompson because it was heavy bulky and he had to carry two drum magazines. He said it was always in the way when working around the aircraft, and the two spare drums were heavy and clumsy. Most of all he said it was not accurate and difficult to shoot well. My Dad is all about accuarcy and not wasting ammo thats why he loved is Springfield ( too this day he gets aggravated if you can't hit your target on the first shot). He loved the carbine because it was light easy to carry and did not snag on everything around the airplane. He never had to fire in combat, but he said he was confident he could hit an enemy soldier with it. He always told me it wouldn't be very good for hunting deer, and Dad is a first class deer hunter.

G

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I obtained an M1 carbine thru the DCM in the early '60s. It was made by Inland Div. of G.M. I think it cost about 19.50. It was in excellent condition. At the time I belonged to a gun club that was so large in membership that we had the buying power of wholesalers. I could buy 110 grain plinkers for a little over a dollar per hundred. I bought loading dies, loaded a batch of ammo,went to the range and found the gun was quite accurate dispite all I had heard to the contrary . I never fired the gun again. I traded it for a beautiful German single shot hunting rifle that looked very much like a 3/4 size Ruger #1. It was chambered for the 8.15x46 cartridge an it had set triggers that were a work of art, as all those rifles seem to have. Sadly I never fired that gun at all. I sold it to a friend for seventy five dollars. Turned a big profit. Years later he was disposing of his gun collection and I tried to buy it back. He had a price of fifteen hundred on it, so I passed . Should have kept the M1.

[Mike Venturino]

Gopher Slayer: I got my dad to sign up to the NRA and get one of those surplus MI Carbines. I remember cost as $20 even. It came in May 1965. By July '66 I sold it for $65 to buy a S&W K38. I guess that was a good move because by December of '66 I had my first bullet mould - Lyman #358432 - for a 160 grain wadcutter. The rest is history. I still haven't gotten bored with casting.

Mike V.

[Ricochet]

I was given an Ideal 2 cavity #358432 160 grain wadcutter mould years ago. It's my favorite boolit for the .38.

[Ken O]

I had one quite a few years back, a Saginaw. A handy rifle, but didn't shoot as good as I expected, so I got rid of it. Then a couple years back or so the CMP had a Carbine match at Camp Perry. I shoot High Power and CMP week so I borrowed one to shoot. It was a Saginaw also. It didn't shoot real well, real sensitve to sling pressure, I got a bronze which is the bottom of the barrel for CMP shoots, and a T-shirt which everyone gets, and all the shoots there are a good time.

I can't believe the price of these now.

[WineMan]

In regards to the poor showing of the Carbine in Korea, they were mostly M2's and with the high rate of fire would quickly run out of ammo. In addition the cold temperatures and the low power of the cartridge made them sluggish when first fired. Recommendations were to not bring them inside where condensation would form and then freeze when out on patrol or in a firefight.

There were many PPSHh-41's in the hands of the North Koreans and Chinese troops and ballistically it is pretty close the the carbine, although low enough to be blowback and not short recoil. More suited to the tactics they used, had they had Carbines they probably would not have known the difference.

My feeling is that the M1 Carbine was a awesome display of what the USA could do when pushed: six million in 1941-1945. It was a long pistol and even today many feel that any pistol caliber without a four in the name is not really enough stopping power.

They are tons of fun, accurate enough at effective ranges for what they were designed for and immortalized at the Iwo Jima Memorial. As Mike said, it was also my first centerfire rifle when my dad got a DCM/NRA Inland mixmaster in the early 1960's.

Wineman

[JesterGrin_1]

I think they are a decent ranch rifle easy to carry and short. I had a couple of them as a kid that were made by Singer yep the sewing machine company lol. Even had a Ruger blackhawk in .30 carbine and it sure would put on a show and was LOUD lol.

But since I was a kid I did not like them much as the best I could do with the Iron sights was around 3 to 4 in groups at 100 yards. So my Father sold them and got a Rem 600 MoHawk in .243 which is good for 1/2 in Groups and better at 100 yards. I still have that one lol.

[Mike Venturino]

Used to be I always packed a handgun of one sort or another with me around the place here in Montana, but at age 60 now I have to have my special glasses to hit anything with them. So instead I often have this handy. Its not a "genuine" M1A1. Its a Saginaw barreled action dropped into a reproduction stock.

[Mike Venturino]

Somebody above mentioned the PPsh41. General Hal Moore that wrote the book about Vietnam "We Were Soldiers Once And Young" referred to it as the most effective infantry weapon on either side in Korea. He was a Captain, a company commander then.

Its downside is that with the drum fully loaded with 71 rounds it weighs about 12 pounds or about twice as much as the M2 Carbine. And of course the carbine was not intended, at least in the beginning, as a front line fighting weapon. It certainly became that, though.

My PPSH41 is shown here. It actually sounds like a chain saw when you turn it loose.

[WineMan]

Mike,

Thanks for the post with the PPSh-41. Maybe the M1 Carbine was too powerful. There are still plenty of 9 mm (Luger, Parabellum) SMG's around but hardly a 45 or Carbine to be found. What is that old saying "Jack of all trades but master at none". As you said the Carbine was never intended to be a front line arm but became one because it had a rare combination of light weight, perfect balance, reasonable (borderline) ballistics and there were plenty of them.

Many of the more powerful SMG's Thompson and PPSh-41 are really heavy at least in their early versions. Blowback (the Thompson eventually became one) is easy but you pay for it either in low power or more weight.

I have never seen the great advantage of the SKS except that it had two more rounds than a M1 Garand (for the same weight), was more powerful than a M1 Carbine (at twice the weight and five to 20 fewer rounds). The 500 fps and 200 yards better ballistics than the Carbine is definitely a plus for a battle rifle and carrying twice the ammo for the same weight of a M1 and stripper clips also have some attraction.

The battle rifle debate will continue and there may never be the ultimate answer. The AR and AK platforms seem set to be with us for a long time to come.

The Carbine you carry with SP or HP ammo is probably all anyone needs for what you carry it for.

Love your articles and collection of toys.

Regards,

Wineman

[Mike Venturino]

Wineman: I think you are right, the debate about worthiness of battle weapons could go on forever. That there were so many different ones is what makes a study of them so fascinating. Nowadays, it seems like one side has ARs and the other AKs and they don't interest me much. But then again I'm not being shot at by any of them, I'm merely a student of historical firearms.
MLV
PS: When carrying that M1A1 repro around I load it with soft point handloads.

[Mike Venturino]

By the way, if any of you would be interested in reading about how cold affects some weapons I recommend the book LAST STAND OF FOX COMPANY. Its about a company of Marines guarding a pass in North Korea during the fighting around the Chosin Resevoir.

There's quite a bit about weapons function and performance in it and having lived here in Montana for over 35 years now and being familiar with COLD I simply cannot understand how those Marines stayed in foxholes in that weather day after day.

MLV

[Three44s]

As I recall, Ret. Col. Oliver North did a special on the "Frozen Chosen".

Very Very bleak times!

Former soldiers interviewed from that battle said they kept their Garrands running with Vitalis and human urine.

Three 44s

[Bret4207]

Mike- could you please explain this thing, this "bored" that you speak of?

Thank you- Bret4207, farmer, woodcutter, home repair expert, mechanic, gunsmith, horseman, shepherd, father of 5, grandfather, chief cook and bottle washer, political activist and voracious reader of the printed word.

[budman46]

star metal,

sgt chip saunders...great series, greatly missed!

budman

[Mike Venturino]

Bret4207: Let's see, I had already written my quota for the day, feed all the dogs, cats, and horses twice for the day. cast my BPCR bullets for the day, prepped a couple hundred cases for military rifles, watched the rain and snow all day, did my cardiac exercise class at the hospital, packaged books for shipment and wrote invoices to go with them, cleaned a couple of rifles, measured chamber mouths of several revolver cylinders with plug gauges, stared at the wall while drinking coffee to dream up more writing ideas, answered all letters and e-mails, built a nice wood fire.

Then I sat down to watch the History Channel and it was "The History Of Sex." So, yeah, I was bored.

MLV

[budman46]

for years i considered the .30 carbine inferior to the .357 magnum, but recently learned the foreign legion in vietnam considered it a superior stopper that killed way out of proportion to its size and velocity despite its anemic ww2 reputation. i never thought much of the french military...with the exception of the foreign legion, so now i wonder.

budman

[Bret4207]

Mike- you need kids. I've got some extra around here I could mail you for a small fee....

[danski26]

Mike......sounds like its about the perfect time to grab the little lady!

[Patrick L]

Let me state right up front I'm no combat expert, I've never worn a uniform and I've never fired a shot at anything more dangerous than a 120 lb whitetail deer.

That said, whenever I'm at the range shooting my carbine and some historian invariably starts lecturing me (with enthusiasm) on the FACTS that those little guns were worthless, underpowered, couldn't stop the North Koreans etc. I have a standing offer I repeat to them:

Pace off 50 yards, turn around, bend over, and I'll shoot you in the a$$ with it. Hell, this little .30 carbine probably won't even break the skin!

Still no takers!