WTB: 10-20 pieces of long .45-70 brass

[montana_charlie]

Charlie,

Thanks for the suggestion on how to proceed with the experiment. You may not remember but shortly after purchasing the stretcher I bought an extra punch with the intentions of doing exactly what you've described, although I had not considered changing the taper.
I did not realize you made a special punch for Starline. I just read all of our emails when I purchased the stretcher and the question of Remington or Starline was not discussed. How do I know which punch I have? Based on you comments I assume the punch diameter will be different.

If you have all of those emails, one of them should have me asking what brand of brass you wanted to stretch. I had to know that before I could send the order to Rick. Could the conversation have started in a forum thread somewhere, where that was clarified before you first contacted me by email?
If nothing else, you probably remember what brand you were working with when you decided to buy a Kal-Max...no?

In any case, a punch intended for Remington and Bell cases should be ~.468" in the hardened/polished area, and a Starline punch will measure ~.471".
If you have two punches, you probably have both sizes...and now you know which one is for which brass.

To try to make 45/90 cases from 45/70 brass, I would probably be tempted to use the larger diameter...even if it was Remington brand cases I wanted to modify.

Assuming I have the correct punch to handle Rem. brass I will also need a Starline punch since my Browning .45-90 chamber is 2.423". I assume the same die will work with Rem. & Starline?

The same die works for all because it's an 'external dimension' which all chambers are governed by. The punch is an 'internal thing' that varies by brass manufacturer.

At least, that was true with the original punches. The adjustable punch has an 'in between' diameter, with an adjustment for 'depth' in the case. It works for any brand that is stretchable.

After you measure those two punches, we can see what you might need...
CM

[texasmac]

Ah ha, you said the magic words "adjustable punch". Both of my punches are the adjustable version and measure exactly 0.4691". Since these work for both Rem. and Starline I can understand why the question never came up, although we may have discussed it on the forum as you indicated. So it seems I'm in good shape and can handle both Rem & Starline with one punch and experiment with the other one.

Charlie, you're a good man. For anyone reading this thread I highly recommend The Kal-Max stretcher. It works well for the job it was designed for as long as you follow the instructions, which, by the way, are well written.

Wayne

[montana_charlie]

So it seems I'm in good shape and can handle both Rem & Starline with one punch and experiment with the other one.

Doncha you love it when a plan comes together?

The two major parts of the adjustable punch are the 'shank' and the 'anvil'.
You would eliminate all of the adjustment shims and reduce the narrow neck on the anvil by 50 thousandths.
After stretching a case, you would have an idea of how much 50 thousandths would gain for you.
You can go until you take the entire neck off of the anvil, if necessary, and start grinding layers off the screw head if you need to dump more length.

But, once the shoulder of the anvil starts to enter the die when seating the punch, you are getting real close to the limit of what the dimensions will allow.
You can keep going shorter (in smaller steps) but when you finally take the head off of a case you'll have a lot of fun getting the case off of the punch.

Like my two Islamic buddies, 'Ayhava bin Dher' and 'al Redhi Dundat'

One nice thing about drastically shortening the neck on that anvil...if you add enough shims, you can get it back to original length.

CM

[Woodtroll]

Folks, I thought I would post a brief update on my progress, although I haven't had time to shoot any loads yet...

I have not had a chance to fire any of the brass Charlie stretched for me, but have just recently had an opportunity to fit them to my chamber. I found that a case with a mouth 0.481" OD, with an OAL of 2.118", would chamber and seemed to be just bumping the end of the chamber. A case any larger in diameter, or any longer, would not chamber. So much for Kirk maintaining that his chambers are never longer than 2.100"...

Not all of Charlie's brass was quite long enough, even after minimal resizing to make them fit the chamber, but many are pretty close. I certainly have enough to experiment with, and it is a big improvement over the 2.090" brass I was using, which left almost 0.030" of the bullet unsupported in the chamber. I have found that my smokeless PP bullets that I use for hunting in my Marlin 1895 are almost a perfect fit for this brass as-is: 0.451" bullets wrapped to 0.459" will thumbseat in these cases, and will just barely chamber in my Shiloh. I had planned to use smaller (0.441" unpatched) bullets in my Shiloh, but just to see what happens I may try these groove-diameter bullets, too. I do shoot only black powder in the Shiloh, though. I hope to be able to shoot some this weekend, and will keep you posted on whether the paper rings disappear.

Thanks for your help and your interest! Y'all take care,
Regan

[montana_charlie]

Not all of Charlie's brass was quite long enough, even after minimal resizing to make them fit the chamber, but many are pretty close. I certainly have enough to experiment with,

As I told you, those cases were from a bag of 'free brass' a guy sent me, and I don't know their history. I couldn't say if the original owner ever trimmed them, but they came to me a 2.080"...which is pretty danged short.
Adding 40 thousandths is right at the outer limit of an unmodified Kal-Max punch,
so it's good to know that (at least) some of them pulled out long enough to fit your gun.

I had planned to use smaller (0.441" unpatched) bullets in my Shiloh, but just to see what happens I may try these groove-diameter bullets, too.

I'm also trying to get patched-to-groove bullets to perform over black powder. If you discover any magic...share!

CM

[texasmac]

Regan

I may be misinterpreting your comments, but it sounds to me as if you are using an actual case to determine the ideal overall case length. If so, than I caution you that doing so can be misleading. Due to the angle of the transition step and other factors, as far as I know, the only accurate way to determine the ideal overall case length for the average shooter is to make an impact casting using a shortened case and soft lead. Another slightly less accurate way is to take a normal chamber cast with Cerrosafe and then separately measure the headspace and headspace clearance, which in itself is not a straight forward measurement. What I’m inferring is you may actually have a 2.1” chamber, but when the headspace clearance is added along with a few thousands thrown in for some portion of the transition step, you may in fact be able to shove in a case 2.118” long, but it may not be the ideal case OAL. In reality, it doesn’t make any difference as long as you are sure of the maximum length. What you don't want to do is overestimate the length and use an over-length case, which can lead to other problems. Just something to keep in mind.

Wayne

[montana_charlie]

Regan

I may be misinterpreting your comments, but it sounds to me as if you are using an actual case to determine the ideal overall case length. If so, than I caution you that doing so can be misleading. Due to the angle of the transition step and other factors, as far as I know, the only accurate way to determine the ideal overall case length for the average shooter is to make an impact casting using a shortened case and soft lead.

Wayne,
Reagan's opening post said...

My chamber slug shows my chamber a little long at 2.120" or so,

That probably translates into 'impact casting'...but it surely shows he had a ballpark figure to work toward that was not determined by inserting a 'long' case.

With the case mouth expanded (or even 'flared') to fully fill the chamber at the mouth, the case cannot wedge into the step, giving a false impression of overall chamber depth.

Regan used the procedure that I use (and described in the instruction sheet that came with your Kal-Max) even though I also start with a chamber cast to set an initial goal.
And, his choice for final length is two thousandths shorter than his 'slug' indicated.

My communications with Reagan convinced me he is a careful workman with a good mechanical appitude. He quickly understands dimensional relationships with only simple descriptions of 'complicated' shapes.

Additionally, shooting soft lead with black powder, he won't create a 'dangerous' situation, even if his cases are one or two thousandths too long.
If they come out of the chamber with a slight 'crimp' on the mouth (felt more than seen), he is aware enough to notice...and knowledgeable enough to know what to do.

I think he'll do fine...

CM

[Woodtroll]

Charlie,
Thanks for your reply. You did indeed tell me the cases were still a little shorter than what you thought they would be. I certainly did not mean my comment to imply that you did not supply what you offered, just that not all of the cases were quite long enough to work out to my intended length (which is what you had anticipated to begin with). Several did, though, and that's how I was able to determine max. case length using the comments you posted above. Without these cases, I couldn't have even gotten that far. You have helped me out tremendously by supplying the cases you had, and I truly appreciate it! And, if these groove-diameter bullets shoot well, I'll surely let you know.

Wayne,
Thanks for the comments, and you are dead on. When I first got this rifle a couple years back, I did an impact casting exactly as you described. My measurement from that casting as formed showed a chamber length of 2.120", as best as I could measure with dial calipers, and chamber diameter 0.4815" just before the 45 degree transition into the lead. The casting showed a ring of chamber-diameter lead that was about 0.030" long at the mouth of the 2.090" long case ; that's what lead me to ask Shiloh about the chamber length to begin with. That's when I was told that there was no way their chambers were longer than 2.10". Mine must be an exception.

I wanted to make sure that my casting was right, even though I've used this same technique on every rifle I've owned over the last 20 years or so (and I even save the case and casting for future reference). So, using one of the longest cases Charlie sent me, which ended up being about 2.125" after resizing just enough to be a snug fit in the chamber, I started belling the case mouth in the smallest increments I was able to accomplish in my press. As the mouth was gradually expanded and the case was "try fit" each time, I could actually feel the taper of the chamber transition, as the case would be just slightly further from chambering each time (it began to "back out" of the chamber as the diameter grew, if that paints a better picture). I ended up with a case with a mouth 0.481" diameter, if I remember correctly, that slid freely into the chamber but then bumped up against a solid stop just shy of chambering- the beginning of the transition.

Again wanting to make sure, since I definitley don't want an over-long case that will separate and get the case "neck" stuck somewhere down the bore as I have seen happen to others, I decided to do one more experiment. I took the too-long case, and using a Redding case trimmer I cut it down just a couple thousandths at a time until it would chamber freely, then inserted a groove-diameter patched bullet to make sure the case was not "crushing" into the tapered transition at the mouth of the chamber. This round chambered fine, but another round prepared similarly but only 0.003" longer caused the block to drag as I brought it up.

I'm pretty sure, with these three tests showing me the same OAL, that at least a couple of pieces of my brass are almost exactly as long as the chamber is. When the cartridge fires, the case will swell and shorten slightly, if my before-and-after length measurements prove correct, so I should still be okay on length. Once I see if this makes any difference in accuracy and, more importantly, eliminates the paper rings left in my chamber, I will just use the brass that is a little shorter already, just to be on the safe side.

I really appreciate y'all's input and help with this- I'm always learning something from someone here! The proof is in the pudding, though, and I will try to get out this weekend and do some trial shooting, and let you know what happens.

Thanks again, guys!
Regan

[Woodtroll]

Charlie,

Thanks for the vote of confidence- I was typing (slowly- the only way I can) as you were posting, I guess, so my last post may seem a reply to YOUR last post at 01:25 PM, which it actually is not. But, thanks anyway!

I don't take Wayne's post as a slight at all, just a caution to someone he doesn't know (and others who may be reading this thread) to be careful that you are really seeing what is actually there. A few thousandths in diameter could indeed change the apparent length of the chamber, as you also made clear when you outlined the process to me. I really do appreciate the thoughts behind ALL of the posts on this thread!

Take care, gentlemen!
Regan

[texasmac]

Charlie,

Thanks for clarifying the situation, and Regan, I appreciate the additional details and your interpretation/understanding of my intentions. By the way, I did not miss your earlier comment that you had made a slug of the chamber. What did not register was that your usage of the term "slug" in fact meant an impact casting. Now that I have the additional details from you and Charlie, its apparent that you have an excellent grasp of the situation and are taking the correct approach using well thought out techniques.

Regards,
Wayne

[Woodtroll]

Folks,

It took longer than I thought to get time to experiment with the longer cases, but the upshot is that I am still getting paper rings. To make it more appropriate as to category, I am going to start a new thread in the Paper Patch category, which will summarize what we've talked about here. The thread is titled 'Paper Rings and "Short" Brass'. Thanks for everyone's help!

Y'all take care!
Regan