Aftermath firearms and ammo

[farmbif]

ive come to conclusion recently that if wanting to prepare for TEOTWAWKI it would be most useful to learn flint knapping and arrow making.
for 10,000 years or more people thrived on this land and left behind not much more than a lot of stone arrowheads. when you fire a gun it is loud and could bring unwanted attention to you. in contrast when you shoot a bow or an atlatl it is relatively silent and deadly enough that for many 1000's of years man not only survived but thrived with use of these arms.

[Recycled bullet]

Greetings to all! This is the first time that I have ever tried to communicate on a forum. I am a master gunsmith and am trying to get prepared for the absolute end of civilization as we know it. I have made or acquired weapons from the "David's Shepheard Sling" to blow guns to wrist rockets. I have just gotten a black powder revolver and am building a black powder rifle. I know that I can buy a cap making device, but I really want to make one. My question for the forum is, does anyone have blueprints to make one of these things? I have the military background to manufacture my own black powder and primer compound. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Well you better start casting and reloading to make the best of what you have where you are.

Imagine what you could do with that Shepherd's staff sling, if you had a coffee can full of powder coated 12 gauge round ball by your side?

[Winger Ed.]

for 10,000 years or more people thrived on this land and left behind not much more than a lot of stone arrowheads.

After the first few guys came to the neighborhood with guns,,,,,, how'd they make out?

[almar]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...p-forming-tool

You might find this useful

[Lloyd Smale]

I'm looking at things from a similar standpoint as those in the old west. They didn't leave their Winchester rifle in town when they ventured west into the wilds because flintlocks had sufficed for 300 years previously. They bought all the ammo they could because they new it was going to be the most valuable tool they had. Back then it was common for a person have a rifle, and use it for 40-50 years. Wear it out before getting another.

How's an AR15 going to fair in a situation like that? It'll probably fair okay until you run out of cleaning supplies or you happen to break or lose a part. A rifle like a winchester 92 or 94 or a Marlin 336 or 94, or a bolt action of your flavor will be much more useful over the long haul than something that requires a lot of maintenance and parts availability.

ive had each and every one of those guns fail and when they do in a shtf senerio good luck getting parts. i have two drawers full of ar15 parts and shoot 10s of thousands of rounds through mine and in 25 years ive broke one extractor shooting steal cased 762x39. even if i didnt have parts i can take any ar15 ever made and use the parts off of it. add to that its probably the most sold and owned long gun in the country. try to find parts for a 92 or fix it quickly when your in a jam. ive many times put over a thousand rounds throug an ar without cleaning them. its the guys suggesting black powder that will run into trouble there. i can pull down any ar15 and wipe it down and put it back together with no tools in a half hour. try that with any other gun. uncle sam already decided that single shots and bolt guns are past there time when you really need to take care of business. figured that out in the 40s

[BadgerShooter]

The M16 platform got a bit of a black eye in the '60's and the same myths are just passed on and on. Its like 1911's, they will kill a rhino, just by pulling it out of the holster and they never jam. I have fired over 400K rounds through 1911's and killed game and stuff up to deer with them. Really not that impressive or reliable. My pocket 9 with the right ammo, has killed just as much stuff and has done a better job, more reliably than any 1911 I have ever owned(and thats a lot) YMMV If you have put multiple thousands of rounds through a weapon system in all sorts of conditions, and you can make it work, its the gun for you. Don't take someones opinion on the internet. Shoot and practice with a purpose. A man I know with nearly 20 years of experience as a Green Beret at the very pointy end of the spear said he never had a problem getting the job done with an AR platform and that is with the "horrible" ball and green tip ammo. Don't believe the myths, find out for yourself. Shoot, hunt, experiment, compete, train and make up your own mind.

[M-Tecs]

ive had each and every one of those guns fail and when they do in a shtf senerio good luck getting parts. i have two drawers full of ar15 parts and shoot 10s of thousands of rounds through mine and in 25 years ive broke one extractor shooting steal cased 762x39. even if i didnt have parts i can take any ar15 ever made and use the parts off of it. add to that its probably the most sold and owned long gun in the country. try to find parts for a 92 or fix it quickly when your in a jam. ive many times put over a thousand rounds throug an ar without cleaning them. its the guys suggesting black powder that will run into trouble there. i can pull down any ar15 and wipe it down and put it back together with no tools in a half hour. try that with any other gun. uncle sam already decided that single shots and bolt guns are past there time when you really need to take care of business. figured that out in the 40s

Agreed, I have over a 100K thru AR rifles mostly for competition and shooting prairie dogs. Only one broken part to date. That was a recoil buffer that the plastic/rubber part failed after 50K plus rounds. Most I've ever fired in an AR without cleaning is about 6K full auto out of 2 M-16's (3K each). I've shot 1,500 rounds in two days several times when shooting prairie dogs. All without broken parts or lack of cleaning issues.

Both of my Marlin 94's (one 357 and one 45 Colt) used for SASS competitions wore enough to have the dreaded "marlin jam" with less than 3K thru each. My 375 BigBore Winchester has had a lifter part break with less than 500 rounds thru it. These are hard breaks that need tools and or parts to repair. While I shoot a lot compared to most my lever guns see the least amount of usage, yet they hard break the most in my experience.

Same for jams and OAL case length issues. My leverguns come in last with the exception of Savage 99's. Never had an issue with any of the three I own but I only have about a 1,000 rounds total thru all three.

For a shtf senerio I want the most effective firearm with that is commonly available and is easily worked on without tools. That would be the AR's based firearms.

[gc45]

When the described time comes, if it comes, none of these survival items will be much use. Game will be gone in just a few weeks rendering them useless for hunting, then the real killing begins and that too will be over fast. I can't see justifying living at that point. My faith is in God, he will return long before those primitive weapons are needed.

[dverna]

Posts 27 and 28 are what I believe in.

SHTF is about killing people, not hunting game. And there will be more people to kill than game to harvest.

Love seeing "preppers" that talk about BP and .22LR's. The fewer well armed folks around, the better.

[gishooter]

I smell BS.
Is the thread starter a government mole fishing?
Or some kid?
Master gunsmith? Military background?

[M-Tecs]

I smell BS.
Is the thread starter a government mole fishing?
Or some kid?
Master gunsmith? Military background?

That was my first thought also. I a curious was MOS or AFSC this is?

I have the military background to manufacture my own black powder and primer compound. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[barnetmill]

I like a no BS person.

As to this from Hick:
"If I were worried about the end of civilization I would learn to make black powder and get a flintlock rifle. No need for primers. If you will recall from history those old Kentucky long rifles and similar weapons were very, very effective!"

You cannot engage effectively with a flintlock against modern weapons. If/when the SHTF, hunting is not what needs doing. What needs doing is killing others as efficiently as possible. You will need to kill to protect what you have. If you have not planned well, you will kill to take from those you have what you want.

Let me put this in perspective. I live in Michigan. There are 2 million deer in MI and 10 million people. If 90% die during a SHTF event and 1 million are left, how long will 2 million deer last? There will not be much small game (or dogs etc) after the first couple of months either.

It is ok to play Daniel Boone when survival is not on the line.

If the SHTF, you may end up living like it was in the 1800's with no power, no gas, no running water, no flushing toilets etc etc. But you will be living in an era that has modern weapons.

I came over to the front of the forum to either start or find a thread on small rear engine mowers got sucked into this lol.
''But you will be living in an era that has modern weapons
also: If 90% die during a SHTF event and 1 million are left, how long will 2 million deer last? There will not be much small game (or dogs etc) after the first couple of months either.
.''
I now live in the deep south. Nearby Alabama is these days full of deer, but I talked to people that were living there in the 1940-50's and there were very few deer and not a lot of small game because people were still hungry.
By the way there are many ways to harvest game and birds without a gun that are absolutely quiet.

Many here are thinking mad max scenarios and bad times may not experience a fall of the federal government. During the great depression the US government remained strong and people were hungry. But remember it was during that time that the NFA came into being with the government seeking to ban pistols and many other guns. Their pistol ban failed.
The ATF has built up quite a digital data base. My two dealers are out of business one through death and other got his license pulled. All of those guns' serial numbers that I purchased over the last 35 years are in the hands of the ATF.
It may well be that the president and ATF during a depression will let us keep 22 bolt action rifles and maybe .410 shotguns.
My point is having some of the lesser guns may be useful. If we go into a depression there will be guerilla or other violent groups out there. People will need to defend themselves. There will also be a lot more must plain outlaws or scavengers living in wooded lots, sewers, etc trying to survive. There are already people during that.
There is even some of that going on today in one of my nearby less desirable neighborhoods. Lady reports that people are stealing her laundry when she tried saving on the electric bill by line drying.
I have gone on a bit here. The point is it will be hard to predict what may happen and count more on repressive government rather than a world without rule of law.

[M-Tecs]

The farm population in 1920 was nearly 32 million, or 30.2 percent of the population of 105.7 million. Today the farm population is 1.8% of the total US population. That doesn't come close to telling the real story. In the 20's and 30's most people had gardens and understood food preservation. Farming was still done mostly with horses and steam tractors. Farms were mostly self-sufficient.

Today most farmers know little about food preservation. Same for raising and harvesting crops without massive quantities of fuel, fertilizer, insecticides and electricity.

Today agriculture is heavily intertwined with the system. If the system collapses in one part, it's very possible that the whole system collapses.

I have no crystal ball but i do know one thing. If the system collapses and most people are left hunting game to survive is not an option for more than a couple of weeks.

[barnetmill]

The farm population in 1920 was nearly 32 million, or 30.2 percent of the population of 105.7 million. Today the farm population is 1.8% of the total US population. That doesn't come close to telling the real story. In the 20's and 30's most people had gardens and understood food preservation. Farming was still done mostly with horses and steam tractors. Farms were mostly self-sufficient.

Today most farmers know little about food preservation. Same for raising and harvesting crops without massive quantities of fuel, fertilizer, insecticides and electricity.

Today agriculture is heavily intertwined with the system. If the system collapses in one part, it's very possible that the whole system collapses.

I have no crystal ball but i do know one thing. If the system collapses and most people are left hunting game to survive is not an option for more than a couple of weeks.

It is a very good point. When I was very little i stayed on the farm of an aunt and uncle. My aunt had a huge garden and she canned. In later years that was not done anymore. All of the relatives have some sort of livestock that was slaughter for family and that was not done anymore.
While in the minority there are some people that do have the concept of gardens. But most of them are looking for farmers that they can buy organic food from.
I am loosely connected with people that are trying to be self sufficient relative to small scale permaculture type farming/gardening.
Below is someone nearby in Alabama that I have traded scion wood with.
Big thing for food production is root crops that I am behind on. Root crops can be stored longer and I think in many cases just left in the ground until needed or least longer than grains can be left above ground.


But if you have food and others do not not, be prepared to defend it. Also there are a lot small birds like dove and other things that I ignore, but would not if I was hungry. I need to get a hundred pounds of shot. I have brass .410 and 28 ga shells for multiple reloading and that is the type of ammo that would really useful for killing things that one encounters in the garden or backyard that one could eat.

[barnetmill]

A very handy gun for small game might be a 50 caliber smooth bore flint lock pistol with a modern steel barrel loaded with shot. One could carry it in a bandoleer holster and would be ready in an instant. I do have access to a lot of range lead and I need to collect it. Actually a .38 special shot loads will also work at super close ranges.
While out and about an AR pistol being compact would be good also for self defense. Even without a brace it is possible to make a head shot with an AR pistol at 100 yards.

[barnetmill]

ive had each and every one of those guns fail and when they do in a shtf senerio good luck getting parts. i have two drawers full of ar15 parts and shoot 10s of thousands of rounds through mine and in 25 years ive broke one extractor shooting steal cased 762x39. even if i didnt have parts i can take any ar15 ever made and use the parts off of it. add to that its probably the most sold and owned long gun in the country. try to find parts for a 92 or fix it quickly when your in a jam. ive many times put over a thousand rounds throug an ar without cleaning them. its the guys suggesting black powder that will run into trouble there. i can pull down any ar15 and wipe it down and put it back together with no tools in a half hour. try that with any other gun. uncle sam already decided that single shots and bolt guns are past there time when you really need to take care of business. figured that out in the 40s

The AK if made in a first rate overseas gun factory more or less to spec has similar reliability to the AR. For an american the AR is the better choice relative to trigger improvements, mounting of optics, accuracy, and not needing major tools like a press to remove barrels.
ARs in 5.56 and 300 black out will be more reliable relative to parts breakage than say it will in 7.62x39 with the .125 deep bolt face. I have spare bolt with extractor for mine and everyone should have spare bolts in the AR since it is the part that breaks. I still have a life time supply of x39. My BCA gun is overgassed and needed H3 buffer to slow it down the bolt speed enough for reliable feeding. Previously only mags with super stiff springs worked and the cases were ejecting way to the front. slowing down the bolt will likely be easier on the extractor too that is the most critical part that breaks in that caliber from my reading. I also still have an sks rifle that like the energizer bunny just keep on working.
The firing pin of the '94 winchester I have been informed will break if dried fired. I have a few hundred rounds top for it. If the feed mechanism fails on most lever guns, they will work as single shots. Other than possibly being more legal, the winchester lever guns are compact and handy.

[dverna]

I came over to the front of the forum to either start or find a thread on small rear engine mowers got sucked into this lol.
''But you will be living in an era that has modern weapons
also: If 90% die during a SHTF event and 1 million are left, how long will 2 million deer last? There will not be much small game (or dogs etc) after the first couple of months either.
.''
I now live in the deep south. Nearby Alabama is these days full of deer, but I talked to people that were living there in the 1940-50's and there were very few deer and not a lot of small game because people were still hungry.
By the way there are many ways to harvest game and birds without a gun that are absolutely quiet.

Many here are thinking mad max scenarios and bad times may not experience a fall of the federal government. During the great depression the US government remained strong and people were hungry. But remember it was during that time that the NFA came into being with the government seeking to ban pistols and many other guns. Their pistol ban failed.
The ATF has built up quite a digital data base. My two dealers are out of business one through death and other got his license pulled. All of those guns' serial numbers that I purchased over the last 35 years are in the hands of the ATF.
It may well be that the president and ATF during a depression will let us keep 22 bolt action rifles and maybe .410 shotguns.
My point is having some of the lesser guns may be useful. If we go into a depression there will be guerilla or other violent groups out there. People will need to defend themselves. There will also be a lot more must plain outlaws or scavengers living in wooded lots, sewers, etc trying to survive. There are already people during that.
There is even some of that going on today in one of my nearby less desirable neighborhoods. Lady reports that people are stealing her laundry when she tried saving on the electric bill by line drying.
I have gone on a bit here. The point is it will be hard to predict what may happen and count more on repressive government rather than a world without rule of law.

My mom turned 100 yesterday, and my dad was in his mid 20's during the Great Depression. They told me stories of how bad things were. But, in spite of that, people were "honest". Milk money was left on the porch for the milkman and no one stole it. No one stole the milk either.

My dad lived in Toronto at the time and even in the city, people did not lock their doors when they went out.

Today's culture is different. If things get bad, people will behave much differently than they did back then.

If we think the BLM riots were bad, what will happen when people cannot find food? And with the loss of law and order, if you have a pretty wife or daughter, someone will kill you to get her.

Folks who gravitate to BP guns and .22's as weapons of choice when things go south are ignoring reality.

[barnetmill]

My mom turned 100 yesterday, and my dad was in his mid 20's during the Great Depression. They told me stories of how bad things were. But, in spite of that, people were "honest". Milk money was left on the porch for the milkman and no one stole it. No one stole the milk either.

My dad lived in Toronto at the time and even in the city, people did not lock their doors when they went out.

Today's culture is different. If things get bad, people will behave much differently than they did back then.

If we think the BLM riots were bad, what will happen when people cannot find food? And with the loss of law and order, if you have a pretty wife or daughter, someone will kill you to get her.

Folks who gravitate to BP guns and .22's as weapons of choice when things go south are ignoring reality.

My mother will soon turn 105. During the depression she did get scurvy from living on day old bread as a student in Brooklyn NY. Her youngest brother for a while was staying with her and friends and the only thing in the house was a jar of peanut butter that he completely ate and he would never touch it after that. He joined the CCC, Civilian Conservation Corps.

My point is that the government would become more repressive and start seizing guns that they do not like. The boating accident will work when the bill of rights is more or less being enforced. But with a repressive gov a little persuasion applied to your wife or grand kids might be used to get a different answer.
I really think that there is a place for smooth bore BP weapons for small mammals and birds along with traps. A little bit of animal protein is important.
Quite easy to go to the urban and rural ghettos to recruit personnel for such types of repression. Promises of good pay and working conditions that include abuse of others would be strong inducements in a recruiting campaign.

[barnetmill]

ive come to conclusion recently that if wanting to prepare for TEOTWAWKI it would be most useful to learn flint knapping and arrow making.
for 10,000 years or more people thrived on this land and left behind not much more than a lot of stone arrowheads. when you fire a gun it is loud and could bring unwanted attention to you. in contrast when you shoot a bow or an atlatl it is relatively silent and deadly enough that for many 1000's of years man not only survived but thrived with use of these arms.

There are tons and tons of steel around and no reason to go looking for flint except if you have a muzzle loader.

[ascast]

A good friend of mine was an officer during the Bosian mess. As such he traveled around a good bit. He reports there was not any wildlife of any kind in the forests. No squirrels, no songbirds, no fingerlings in creeks. Nothing. These people had all kinds of guns.
My plan involves defending the Amish draft horses and dairy farm stock. If I can last a year....