help needed on reloading .223 rem.

[gloob]

Even if you trimmed first, and then size, the cartridges would still fit in the gauge. If you trimmed to max length (and who does that?), the case mouth would only be long by a few thousandths.

There are at least three reasons the entire rim of a case will stick out of a case gauge. Two are fairly common. The case is a little too fat, or there's a ding on the rim.

A case that's slightly too fat can cause your rifle to fail to go into battery. But by the time it does that, the rounds are going to seize in there the way an unlubed case will seize up in a sizing die.

There's a third reason the entire rim of a case/round will stick out of a case gauge. It's because the case is simply way too long from shoulder to base. And these cases can fail to size until you anneal the shoulders.

Case stretching (and resulting shoulder separations) seem to be a lesser known problem that can be caused by semi-auto rifles. This is the only discussion I have found about it. And the reason it's so little known is probably covered in response #34

"30+ years ago I was building/tuning AR rifles to better suit the rounds being fired through them,
and to this day eyes glaze over instantly when you start the conversation about gas pulse pressure AND duration..."

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...=575254&page=2

Perhaps OP has an offending rifle, or he got his brass from one.

[M-Tecs]

Case stretching (and resulting shoulder separations) seem to be a lesser known problem that can be caused by semi-auto rifles. This is the only discussion I have found about it. And the reason it's so little known is probably covered in response #34

"30+ years ago I was building/tuning AR rifles to better suit the rounds being fired through them,
and to this day eyes glaze over instantly when you start the conversation about gas pulse pressure AND duration..."

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...=575254&page=2

Perhaps OP has an offending rifle, or he got his brass from one.

That builder needs to hang around with a better class of builders or he needs to do some research for himself.

These issues have been widely discuss issue since Colts 605/607 failed Carbines in the 60's. More recently (like 30 plus years ago) it came to the forefront when Sierra intruded the 80 grain .224" bullets and people started driving them hard out of AR's. The early 90's the Army Marksmanship Unit had a load they called the V-8 load. They had to use LC primed and crimped brass since the load tested out to 77,000 to 78,000 PSI. The primers stayed in but the pockets expanded beyond use after the first firing. Bolt life wasn't great but they would just swap one out when you lost a lug or two.

That lead to National Match 2 oz heavier bolt carrier's, Tubb and others bolt carrier weights, heavier buffer springs, different weight buffers, adjustable gas blocks and yes, they were around before the increased demand for suppressors, and longer gas tubes. The same development and discussion happened with the 3-gun guns running lighter carriers for faster cycle times. Same for the various issues surrounding the pistols and carbine length builds.

Shorter brass life issues with the M1 Garand and M14/M1A rifles have been around as long as people have been reloading for them. The AR15's can do the same if not configured properly. The difference is when properly setup you will lose brass from primer pocket or neck failure long before head separation becomes an issue.

[gloob]

Interesting stuff, M-tecs. I've heard reference to carbine length short buffer tubes causing excess work hardening and shorter case life. I think these rifles are only slightly off.

I bet when the rifle is just shy of fully separating cases or tearing rims on the first firing, that's where you should get these grossly stretched cases that won't size. There's no shiny ring where the brass has thinned. Shooters who don't reload would never notice. They might have the headspace checked out and find it's normal, then just blame the occasional separation on bad ammo and continue leaving these stretched cases on the range for us to find.

This is the reason I gauge any new pickups before sizing. If you gauged your brass after sizing, you'd still catch them, in my experience. But god forbid you got some that actually sized, properly, and you mix those in with the rest of your cases. That would be even worse. Then you have a separation and resulting jam just waiting to happen.

[popper]

If the base is sticking out, too much head space, adjust the sizing die. If the mouth is sticking out, neck is too long, trim it. May need to do both, shoulder first.

[gifbohane]

I would go with the simplest solution that you did not cam over the sizing die enough.

[M-Tecs]

Interesting stuff, M-tecs. I've heard reference to carbine length short buffer tubes causing excess work hardening and shorter case life. I think these rifles are only slightly off.

I bet when the rifle is just shy of fully separating cases or tearing rims on the first firing, that's where you should get these grossly stretched cases that won't size. T

It's primarily the short gas tubes on the carbines that causes early opening of the bolt. Standard rifle length buffer tubes verse carbine length buffer tube have little too no effect on bolt opening timing with stock parts. Once you start changing the weights of springs, buffers and carrier things do change.

Brass rifle cases that are not capable of being resized don't exist. Brass does work harden and as it hardens it does spring back more. That difference tends to be under .005" and .002" or .003" is what I normally see and I have never seen .005".

With a die that is max length and a chamber that is min. it might become an issue. Thats one of the reasons they make shell holders of different length like the Redding Competition shellholder sets https://www.redding-reloading.com/on...ellholder-sets

Others opt to modify their shellholder or die to provide more sizing.

[gloob]

I know they were shot in an AR as I watched the fellow shoot them, pack up and go home leaving the brass behind. I deprived them, swaged the primer pockets and them wet tumbled in SS pins. When I tried FL sizing them, no matter how I set my FL die, I could only get a handful of them to pass the cartridge gauge - and all were in the OAL specs.

Bedbugbilly has seen them, too. That quote if from this thread. I recall finding one of these in my last batch of pickups, and it is probably in the scrap bin. Maybe I'll look for it, since you have never seen one. But it's in a pile of other 223 cases scrapped mostly for neck tension or primer pockets. I have had many more, and I didn't know to save them for Ripley's Museum.

I wouldn't modify my perfectly good die to attempt to size these stretched cases. Then all my normal cases would have to be sized with a floating die, adding variability of press flex. I'm thrifty, but it's nonsense to do anything but toss these cases as scrap. If you anneal them, they'll size, just to jam your gun on the first or second reload.

[M-Tecs]

Bedbugbilly has seen them, too. That quote if from this thread. I recall finding one of these in my last batch of pickups, and it is probably in the scrap bin. Maybe I'll look for it, since you have never seen one. But it's in a pile of other 223 cases scrapped mostly for neck tension or primer pockets. I have had many more, and I didn't know to save them for Ripley's Museum.

I wouldn't modify my perfectly good die to attempt to size these stretched cases. Then all my normal cases would have to be sized with a floating die, adding variability of press flex. I'm thrifty, but it's nonsense to do anything but toss these cases as scrap. If you anneal them, they'll size, just to jam your gun on the first or second reload.

The RCBS recommend contact and cam over is nothing than the most basic and simplistic method to adjust a FL die that works for the majority of people most of the time. In reality contact and or cam over provides zero benefit for FL sizing. Unless you get really lucky with the die and chamber combo it will be less than optimal. The forces required to size the case far exceed the forces required to any of the claimed slop or flex.

Good info here on cam over.

https://mssblog.com/2016/04/14/cam-o...-it-just-dont/

Erik Cortina in the video below is the current F-Class World champion and holds some additional National and World record groups.

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...championships/
Erik Cortina Wins South African F-Open Title in Prelude to F-Class World Championships

[Larry Gibson]

Should also note that SAAMI minimum chamber headspace spec and the maximum cartridge headspace spec usually overlap by .003 - .004". That means a maximum SAAMI headspaced cartridge can show a bit of difficulty when chambered in a SAAMI minimum headspaced chamber.

[gloob]

That linked article, he claims you should not use the manufacturer's directions. No "extra" turn of the die, needed. That might be true if you use a Forstner Coax.

If your sizing die doesn’t adequately set back a case shoulder, have a machinist remove metal from the die bottom. Best to use a surface grinder to avoid messing with the heat-treat on the die.

If the shellholder barely touches the die at TDC when unloaded, there can be a small gap while sizing an actual case. If screwing the die down an extra fraction solves the problem, why would you take your die to a machinist to make it too short?

My press doesn't even cam-over. I don't do it to feel the cam-over. I do it because my press has some flex. When adjusted correctly, the shellholder will still touch the die when a case is in there. I thought this was the point? Since I'm extremely lucky, my cases come out just right when adjusted like this, mostly a few thous sub flush on the case gauge until they eventually start to approach flush after multiple firings if they don't get retired for pockets or neck tension, first.

Except there are those grossly stretched cases that just spring back out.

I'd have to become a much better shot before I got any benefit from the extra work of separating brass for individual rifles and lots to do minimal bump sizing of my 223 brass, but thanks. I'm fully aware of neck and bump sizing, and I already own a collect neck sizing die in another rifle caliber. My 223 brass isn't being overworked. I've never had a proper case-head separation, before. The only broken cases I have experienced were from these grossly long cases I had to anneal first to get them to size to spec. The worst offenders were comical. Tried sizing them multiple times, ensuring shellholder contact, and they still stuck out the gauge by about 1/16 inch. Just like OP has described.

Even if you set your die wrong and you didn't check for a gap, even the cheapest press doesn't get this much flex. That's more than a full turn.

^ Yes, that's true, too. If you have a chamber on the short side and a die on the long end, you might need to modify your die or shellholder. I've found some a few curiously short pickups that sink into the case gauge. These form on the first firing back to normal, with no problems for me to date. These few happened to be a rare headstamp in my collection, which I'll know in case one breaks on me.

[M-Tecs]

Should also note that SAAMI minimum chamber headspace spec and the maximum cartridge headspace spec usually overlap by .003 - .004". That means a maximum SAAMI headspaced cartridge can show a bit of difficulty when chambered in a SAAMI minimum headspaced chamber.

100% correct. That's something I have never fully understood. It gets more interesting since SAAMI does not specify die specs. SAAMI is 100% voluntary and chambers, ammo, bore size and pressure testing standards including proof loads.

On the other end of the spectrum with minimum brass and maximum chambers you have .014" clearance. SAAMI HS specs on case shoulders are normally 0.0" minus .007" and chambers are 0.0" plus .007".

I prefer actual measurements over "luck".

I did give some to a prairie dog shooting buddy. He was getting head separations after 3 or 4 fires with both the M249 SWA brass and commercial. His die (when touching the shell holder) was bumping the shoulder back .008" under the minimum headspace. His chamber was .005" over minimum so he had .013" stretch each firing. After I showed him how to properly adjust his dies he stopped having issues.

The buddy listed above was one of the unlucky ones. He lives out of state but we get together to shoot pararie dogs. He started with a 22-250 but when he got serious about it purchased an AR. That was at the end of one of my trips. I gave him about 500 rounds of the brass. He purchased 2,000 new Winchester case. I suggested he get a Stone Point comparator (now Hornady). He insisted the only way to adjust a die was into the shell holder and the that was just a wate of money.

He cycled his brass so they all had the same about of loadings on them. At the 3rd firing the separations started. At the 4th firing it was bad enough that he junked all 2,500 cases. He then purchased a Stone Point case comparator. After I showed him proper die shoulder bump adjustments he would get a minimum of 10 to 12 loadings with zero separations. Loose primer pockets was the cause of him scraping the brass. Some (for him) went well past 12 loadings. I load on a Dillon Super 1050 progressive, so I scrape my brass at 10 loadings since I can't feel loose primer pockets.