Any Reason for +P Ammo

[pettypace]

Oh I understand. With a 43/100 diameter bullet of 108 gr in wadcutter shape at a velocity of 407 fps pen. Is 7 inches and DWM is 9. At 1599 pen. Is 17 inches and DWM is 34.
With a 43/100 bullet of 245 grains a velocity of 535 fps will give 18 inches pen., and a DWM of 37. At 1597 fps it will give 38 inches and 37 DWM.
I understand.

It's also worth understanding that the 37 grams of "Defense Wound Mass" VIRGEL predicts for a 230 grain .44 wadcutter fired at modest velocities from your 629 is in the same league as the 37 grams of wound mass VIRGEL predicts for the vaunted "FBI Load" or for a premium 147 grain 9mm JHP. As far as "Defense Wound Mass" is concerned, VIRGEL puts all three in the same ballpark.

If you want much more than that from your .44, you'll need a different bullet and more velocity. If you want much more than that from a .38 Special or a 9mm you''re out of luck.

[44MAG#1]

It's also worth understanding that the 37 grams of "Defense Wound Mass" VIRGEL predicts for a 230 grain .44 wadcutter fired at modest velocities from your 629 is in the same league as the 37 grams of wound mass VIRGEL predicts for the vaunted "FBI Load" or for a premium 147 grain 9mm JHP. As far as "Defense Wound Mass" is concerned, VIRGEL puts all three in the same ballpark.

I understand.
I carry a M69 Smith 44 Mag and a 247 gr bullet that has a .38 MEPLAT some of the time and a 45 Auto mostly.

[charlie b]

It's also worth understanding that the 37 grams of "Defense Wound Mass" VIRGEL predicts for a 230 grain .44 wadcutter fired at modest velocities from your 629 is in the same league as the 37 grams of wound mass VIRGEL predicts for the vaunted "FBI Load" or for a premium 147 grain 9mm JHP. As far as "Defense Wound Mass" is concerned, VIRGEL puts all three in the same ballpark.

If you want much more than that from your .44, you'll need a different bullet and more velocity. If you want much more than that from a .38 Special or a 9mm you''re out of luck.

From what I can tell, the use of expanding ammo information in that code is just a guess at how much expansion you will get. You could even 'assume' that the FBI 158 SWCHP would expand at 500fps, even though it does not. You could also assume that it will expand to .45" or even more, which dramatically changes the outcome.

To be fair, this is not a flaw in the Virgel code, it is just the simple nature of the algorithms used in that software.

Virgel makes sense in comparing non-expanding projectiles, not much else.

[pettypace]

From what I can tell, the use of expanding ammo information in that code is just a guess at how much expansion you will get. You could even 'assume' that the FBI 158 SWCHP would expand at 500fps, even though it does not. You could also assume that it will expand to .45" or even more, which dramatically changes the outcome.

To be fair, this is not a flaw in the Virgel code, it is just the simple nature of the algorithms used in that software.

Virgel makes sense in comparing non-expanding projectiles, not much else.

You're right that VIRGEL allows you to "assume" any value you want for expanded bullet diameter. But, as they say, "That's a feature, not a bug!" The whole point of simulation software is to pursue assumptions without the expense of actually doing the experiment.

For example, here's Fackler's wound profile for the FBI Load:



Working in an Army research lab, Fackler had a big budget and willing workers at his command. Lots of resources went into measuring expansion of 0.59" and 12.6" of penetration.

Fackler's measurements provide a benchmark to see if VIRGEL knows anything at all about expanded bullets. Sure enough! VIRGEL predicts the same 13" of penetration. That's a good sign.

But what if the FBI Load has to go through heavy clothing that clogs the hollow point and limits expansion to just 0.48"? Fackler's wound profile offers no clue. But VIRGEL instantly shows a likely penetration of 19" with even more "Defense Wound Mass" than with bare gel. That's worth knowing. It helps explain why the FBI Load had a reputation of working from a snubby as well as from a 4" service revolver. And it didn't take the Letterman Army Institute of Research to find out.

VIRGEL can even make some sense of your 500 f/s expanded FBI Load example. We know that 500 f/s is not enough to cause expansion. But suppose that bullet mentioned above expanded to 0.48" after hitting the bad guy and then passed through a few inches of soft tissue and exited with a velocity of 500 ft/s. Is that bullet any danger to innocent bystanders downrange? A few taps at VIRGEL show that a 158 grain mushroomed bullet at just 500 f/s might still penetrate to 12". That's worth knowing, too.

What more do you want from free software?

[44MAG#1]

There is a good read on Mr. Fackler on the internet.
He was ahead of his time. Everyone should read about him.

[Outpost75]

There is a good read on Mr. Fackler on the internet.
He was ahead of his time. Everyone should read about him.

Back in the day I knew Marty Fackler professionally and worked with him and Dr. Robert L. McCoy at BRL on several technical intelligence projects evaluating the Soviet AK74 vs. M16A1and A2 calibrating @10% gelatin against live goats and pig muscle. Military physicians at AFIP performed both the wound treatments and PMs. That raw data and detailed analysis is still classified, but suffice to say the test methods were fully validated and we had some great BBQs. The test methods were later applied to handgun rounds and are fully credible.

[M-Tecs]

Very interest man

https://sadefensejournal.com/father-...nd-ballistics/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler

[Kosh75287]

The unanswerable question is [at] what point does the load become "anemic"?

For MY purposes, in the context of a defensive pistol round, when the bullet weight (grains) multiplied by velocity (f/s) does not equal or exceed 160,000 with a projectile of at least .355" diameter, I consider it too anemic for defense. This also assumes a SWC, T/C or RNFP bullet configuration.
This may not be EVERYone's answer to that question, but it works for me. The question IS, in fact, answerable. But the answer may not be the same for each shooter.

[44MAG#1]

I wonder what caliber handgun Mr Fackler carried and the ammo used.

[M-Tecs]

I don't know at what point a cartridge becomes anemic for its intended usage but here is one example.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/.38_Long_Colt

The cartridge's relatively poor ballistics were highlighted during the Philippine-American War of 1899–1902, when reports from U.S. Army officers were received regarding the .38 bullet's inability to stop charges of frenzied Moro juramentados, even at extremely close ranges. A typical instance occurred in 1905 and was later recounted by Col. Louis A. LaGarde:

Antonio Caspi, a prisoner on the island of Samar, P.I. attempted escape on Oct. 26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter by a .38 Colt's revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt end of a Springfield carbine.[3]

Col. LaGarde noted Caspi's wounds were fairly well-placed: three bullets entered the chest, perforating the lungs. One passed through the body, one lodged near the back and the other lodged in subcutaneous tissue. The fourth round went though the right hand and exited through the forearm

[pettypace]

There is a good read on Mr. Fackler on the internet.
He was ahead of his time. Everyone should read about him.

Between 1991 and 2001 Fackler published the Wound Ballistics Review available online in pdf format here.. It's a goldmine of good information. The very last issue contains the complete set of Fackler's wound profiles.

[44MAG#1]

Again, I wonder what Mr. Fackler carried as far as a handgun and the caliber it was and the ammo he carried in his personal gun?
That would tell us a lot.
How many have changed their handgun choice and or ammo over all this information that has been presented?

[pettypace]

Again, I wonder what Mr. Fackler carried as far as a handgun and the caliber it was and the ammo he carried in his personal gun?
That would tell us a lot.
How many have changed their handgun choice and or ammo over all this information that has been presented?

Maybe Fackler wasted his time with all those experiments, diagrams, words, and ideas of his. He should have just told us what he carried.

That would tell us a lot.

Because surely there's a one-size-fits-all answer and tomorrow we could all just stream out to our local gun stores and buy the magic gun with the magic bullets that Fackler carried.

How many have changed their handgun choice and or ammo over all this information that has been presented?

I think the answer is "2." But why do you ask? Is the information more relevant if the answer turned out to be "4" or less relevant if the answer is "0"?

[44MAG#1]

Maybe Fackler wasted his time with all those diagrams and words and ideas of his. He should have just told us what he carried.



Because surely there's a one-size-fits-all answer and tomorrow we could all just stream out to our local gun stores and buy the magic gun with the magic bullets that Fackler carried.



I think the answer is "2." But why do you ask? Is the information more relevant if the answer turns out to be "4" or less relevant if the answer is "0"?

2, 4, or 0. I still would like to know what he carried. And the ammo he used in what he carried.
What is wrong with that?
That would be interesting to me if it isn't to you.
Did his research/experiments influence his carry choice?
I have some expensive knives I think is the best out there for over the counter knives but I carry a Case Large Stockman and a Spyderco Endura with a partially serrated blade which I don't care for when I am out and a Gerber at home in my lounging pants
Although I think there are a lot better quality knives that are better for carry and I own several.
I know a guy that shoots IDPA and is quite good at it and he shoots Taurus handguns a lot even though he has plenty of money and owns much more expensive handguns.
As WE all KNOW people can be a funny thing.

[pettypace]

Out of curiosity, I too would like to know what Fackler carried. But, whatever his choice, I'm sure it involved due consideration of reliability, accuracy, penetration, and permanent cavity volume.

[44MAG#1]

Out of curiosity, I too would like to know what Fackler carried. But, whatever his choice, I'm sure it involved due consideration of reliability, accuracy, penetration, and permanent cavity volume.

Can we be sure about that knowing what we know about people?
I know another guy that carrys a Ruger 380 when he has 9MM and 45 Autos in various sizes.
You will find I AM NOT the only questionable minded person out there.
Shoot, practice and own several handguns in various calibers and prices and carries a 380. My neighbor carries a 25 Auto with 50 gr FMJRN ammo. But he is a big fan of the 9MM

[pmer]

It looks Martin Fackler was a Navy surgeon from 1960 to 1975 does that mean he got to choose between a 1911 and a 4" barreled 38 Special?

Like everyone else he probably wanted 45 ACP performance from something smaller and lighter LOL

[cainttype]

It looks Martin Fackler was a Navy surgeon from 1960 to 1975 does that mean he got to choose between a 1911 and a 4" barreled 38 Special?

Like everyone else he probably wanted 45 ACP performance from something smaller and lighter LOL

Dr. Martin Fackler is often referred to as “The Father” of modern wound ballistic research (for good reason) by other men, highly respected by their peers, that have followed in his footsteps.
Duncan Macpherson is another “giant” in the field, but approached the subject from a sort of “mechanical view”, developing ideas that could be easier understood by the average reader. He was a well-known, highly competent engineer… Macpherson’s interest in the subject came after his recognition as a gifted “Rocket Scientist”. You can find his name listed prominently in NASA’s space program records.

If you’re interested in Fackler’s personal habits, whether he even carried a gun, you might need to ask someone with a more personal connection…
Ask Outpost75, if he’s willing to share that sort of info about an old friend.

[44MAG#1]

If you’re interested in Fackler’s personal habits, whether he even carried a gun, you might need to ask someone with a more personal connection…
Ask Outpost75, if he’s willing to share that sort of info about an old friend.

I have found that friends will protect friends
Just like enemies will run down enemies
One never knows who to listen too. Just flip a coin

It's like going by statistics. How were they gathered and by whom?

[cainttype]

I have found that friends will protect friends
Just like enemies will run down enemies
One never knows who to listen too. Just flip a coin

It's like going by statistics. How were they gathered and by whom?

In your case, nothing is believable.
Luckily sane people with some experience can make pretty good judgement calls when presented with reasonable evidence and logical reasoning.
There’s no “coin flipping” that will ever answer even the easiest of questions. PRETENDING that there are no answers is more a reaction to ignoring accurate answers you would rather not admit are accurate.

Since we can’t all be “experts” in every discipline, those that are intelligent defer to the real experts in particular fields to give us the reasoned, logical answers to the questions that we are curious about.