358-105-SWC in Henry Rifle?

[PeteB]

I use and have just cast around 1000 of these 358-105-SWCs for a Muzzle Loading Nitro Revolver here in the UK. I'm wondering could I use these in my Henry Rifle, perhaps with a starting load to match the 158gr SWC's I generally use? They're 30:1 Lead/Tin and have been Powder Coated and I expect them to fly at around 950fps. I just punch holes in paper targets.

So the question is about using a 105gr Powder Coated soft Lead in my 357 Henry Big Boy?

[sigep1764]

You should not have a problem. I would make sure those SWC will feed in the Henry.

[Misery-Whip]

My Henry shoots them accuratly, just feeding isnt very smooth. So I shot up what I had and went to a round flat design.

[Daekar]

If they'll feed, are sized appropriately, and aren't pushed too fast, I expect they'll shoot just fine. No telling what load your rifle will like, though.

[gwpercle]

Make up a dummy (no primer / no powder) and test feeding . If the Henry will feed it , you good to go ... don't forget to get a nice roll crimp into the boolit's crimp groove , lever action recoil and tubular magazine spring pressure want to shove them down into the case ... but you probaly know that !

That little 38-105-SWC also works well in the 9mm Luger ...just taper crimp on the top driving band , my Walther P-38 just loves this little boolit sized .357 !

Good Luck ,
Gary

[muskeg13]

Uhmm. The Henry has a tube magazine. Anyone see a problem here? The meplat on the .358-105-SWC is quite small in diameter. These are some of my .380s loaded with this boolit, but the projectile nose to primer situation will be the same with .38 Specials or .357 Mags.

[dannyd]

just load one at a time if your just shooting paper.

[PeteB]

I must admit I hadn't thought of that aspect of the 105! I'll have a closer look but I think being flat they are very unlikely to set off the one in front, hopefully. I'm also using a very light load so recoil will be minimal. Hope to shoot some of these on Monday next so will let you know the outcome.

[PeteB]

I'm already using a 158 gr SWC and that feeds ok, not as smooth as a Round Nose but it feeds. Interesting you mention the crimp groove, today I loaded up 10 rounds at 357 Magnum OAL = 1.590" and found the brass doesn't quite reach the crimp groove. I also loaded up 10 rounds at 38 special OAL = 1.550" and these reach the crimp groove fine. Haven't performed a crimp operation yet and thought to try them as they are initially. Planning to try them out Monday next.

[PositiveCaster]

Please provide a documented case where a lead bullet set off the primer of another pistol case in a tubular magazine. Think about the OP’s situation for a minute instead of wildly panicking about something which may never have happened. The OP’s load is very light - a 105-grain bullet at 950 fps. Recoil will be minimal in the heavy rifle. The bullet point is soft lead, and the flat point is far larger than a steel firing pin. I don’t “see a problem” at all.



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[PeteB]

I pretty much came to the same conclusions, but good to hear your analysis.

[muskeg13]

Please provide a documented case where a lead bullet set off the primer of another pistol case in a tubular magazine. Think about the OP’s situation for a minute instead of wildly panicking about something which may never have happened. The OP’s load is very light - a 105-grain bullet at 950 fps. Recoil will be minimal in the heavy rifle. The bullet point is soft lead, and the flat point is far larger than a steel firing pin. I don’t “see a problem” at all.

Alright! Here we go again. Every few years I have to respond to internet experts doubting the existence of magazine tube explosions with lead bullets. It happened to me, on May 23,2004, with soft very blunt nosed lead bullets in a tube magazine. These were modestly loaded 200 gr .44 Magnum cast loads in a Rossi Puma M92. I bear the scars, broken teeth and facial paralysis that attest to the FACT that magazine tube explosions can and do happen, so this is a very touchy issue for me. I had to undergo surgery several days after the initial Doc sewed me up to remove a sizable fragment of cartridge case undetected by x-ray that caused infection. Some people take unnecessary risks all the time, and most often get away with it. You're free to make your own decisions. Good luck, but don't spread know-it-all internet illogic!

If you don't wish to believe me, read a little about the reasons the U.S. Army rejected tube magazine repeating rifles to replace the single shot Trapdoor M1873 Springfield rifle, chief among these were several documented cases of magazine tube explosions during the trials.

[BMW Rider]

Muskeg13,

Thanks for sharing your cautionary tale based on experience. I'm glad you are still among us on the topside of the ground to tell your tale. Be well fellow caster of boolits!

[PeteB]

Thank you Muskeg, for sharing this with us. Although I successfully fired 10 of each of these Monday night I was still in two minds as to whether to continue down this road! Reading about your experience I think I'll revert to 158gr SWC where the truncated cone is larger than the primer.

[gwpercle]

Uhmm. The Henry has a tube magazine. Anyone see a problem here? The meplat on the .358-105-SWC is quite small in diameter. These are some of my .380s loaded with this boolit, but the projectile nose to primer situation will be the same with .38 Specials or .357 Mags.

Oh My ! that might present a fly into the ointment ... Drat !!!

I don't have any on hand to measure ... what is diam. of boolet TC and what is diam. of large primer ?
If TC meplat isn't larger than the primer ... I would call this one a no-go .
Better safe than sorry .

Lee doesn't have any light 38 with a crimp groove ...NOE makes a
358 - 105 - TC that appears to have a larger truncated cone nose with a larger meplate and it might be larger than a large pistol primer .
Check out NOE site they might have detailed boolit drawings on site forum giving that dimension ... it appears larger than Lee's .
Gary

[yeahbub]

Eeyow! Thank you, Muskeg13 for the needed wake-up call. I never felt comfortable with the Lee 105gr SWC use in a lever-action - the nose flat is too small, or round-nose either, like the Lyman 311291. I saw what happened with a Ruger .44 Mag carbine and round-nose bullets some 20 years ago. It pretty much destroyed the rifle.

[PeteB]

Oh My ! that might present a fly into the ointment ... Drat !!!

I don't have any on hand to measure ... what is diam. of boolet TC and what is diam. of large primer ?
If TC meplat isn't larger than the primer ... I would call this one a no-go .
Better safe than sorry .

Lee doesn't have any light 38 with a crimp groove ...NOE makes a
358 - 105 - TC that appears to have a larger truncated cone nose with a larger meplate and it might be larger than a large pistol primer .
Check out NOE site they might have detailed boolit drawings on site forum giving that dimension ... it appears larger than Lee's .
Gary

So the end diameter of the truncated cone is 0.165", the case primer pocket diameter is 0.175" but the primer has a radiused corner making its flat area 0.150" diameter. Too close for comfort, for me.

[PositiveCaster]

Alright! Here we go again. Every few years I have to respond to internet experts doubting the existence of magazine tube explosions with lead bullets. It happened to me, on May 23,2004, with soft very blunt nosed lead bullets in a tube magazine. These were modestly loaded 200 gr .44 Magnum cast loads in a Rossi Puma M92. I bear the scars, broken teeth and facial paralysis that attest to the FACT that magazine tube explosions can and do happen, so this is a very touchy issue for me. I had to undergo surgery several days after the initial Doc sewed me up to remove a sizable fragment of cartridge case undetected by x-ray that caused infection. Some people take unnecessary risks all the time, and most often get away with it. You're free to make your own decisions. Good luck, but don't spread know-it-all internet illogic!

If you don't wish to believe me, read a little about the reasons the U.S. Army rejected tube magazine repeating rifles to replace the single shot Trapdoor M1873 Springfield rifle, chief among these were several documented cases of magazine tube explosions during the trials.

I am truly sorry for your experience. But yours is an extremely rare occurrence, and hardly represents any proof of a common “problem”. And a 19th century case hardly shows a problem with modern ammunition. To me, this aligns with someone saying that H110 powder is unsafe in a .44 Magnum reload…one instance of a problem. If we based our decisions on a single case, we’d have to avoid vaccination with smallpix vaccine or driving a hybrid vehicle which might burst into flames. A bullet point slightly smaller than a primer? What is the diameter of a firing pin? A small number of cases does not make a trend. But regardless, practice safe reloading as you see fit.





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[muskeg13]

You asked for a documented case of a magazine tube explosion, and I provided two. A search of the subject on this website will provide readers others, including a link to this one: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15792 involving a modern Marlin 1895. Discussion in thefiringline link reveals accounts of multiple other magazine tube explosions over the years. yeahbub's post above (#16) describes an explosion that occurred in a modern Ruger .44 Carbine. Luckily, magazine tube explosions are rare, but they do occur from time to time.

[old beekeeper]

I have been using that bullet in my marlins 357 for years and that and lees 358-125 rf are about all I shoot any more. Less lead, less powder and both are really accurate I usually load them both with Unique, 6 gr for the 125 and 5.5 for the 105gr. Used to shoot both with 6 grains, but found the 105 would do just as well with a few grains less. The hold at about 1" at 50 yards, and with my hip and legs being less than adequate for my 84 year old body, I don't feel like walking another 50 yards to hang targets. Guess it is just laziness, the close groups at 50 will have to do for me. Have been told that the 125 will still hold a nice group at 100 yards. I pour from Lee molds and use range lead sweetened just a just a tad of linotype to help fill the mold nicely. Don't see why the Henry would not like these two bullets, the quality of the firearm is certainly not a question, should do really nice. I have sure enjoyed shooting them and I just shoot them in my Ruger 357 and the group ok at 25 yards considering I shoot with arthritic hands. Still enjoy them. Most of the guys at our range usually use a couple grains of bullseye, some use red dot and get great results in handguns, and with 3 grains of bullseye, it is like shooting a .22. That's what I load for my wife and granddaughter and loading up a bucket full with 38 brass with 2.7 grains of bullseye, they shoot them all day with my 6" barrel Ruger and love it. Some of the guys like Trail Boss because it fills the case more and is just a bit slower than bullseye. I like the unique in my Marlin since it is a bit slower burn and stays in my longer barrel longer which I think helps accuracy.