Redding's new policy - Make junk

[Boomer Mikey]

This thread is terribly disgusting. May I ask at what point did you lose the whole concept of having a hobby? Have you actually looked at factory ammo and checked the concentricity of it?

Why can't you just have fun? There are tolerences in everything made, whether it is manufactured here or overseas.

I think many are hiding behind a .001 tolerence issue as simply an excuse for some other shortcoming.

Customer Service representatives rarely get the appreciation they deserve. They are expected to know every detail of every item and every possible thing someone could dream of to use the item, usually greated with a nasty reply from the customer.

For Heaven's Sake - get over yourselves and get out and shoot the gun, not your mouths.

Remember why you reload, have fun! Isn't that why you do it?

Excuse me sir,

Everyone is entitled to enjoy their hobbies the way they want to.

Rick has a valid issue and has been treated poorly by any remote standard of customer service. I for one was insulted by the customer service staff at Redding a couple of years ago and discussed the issue with Richard Bebee, the owner of Redding Products at the SHOT show in Las Vegas. Apparently the low quality of the staff at Redding wasn't and still isn't an important issue. I still purchase Redding and Lee products; however, I will only purchase them from a supplier that has a money back policy If I return an item.

Competitive shooters use precision reloading practices to produce handloads that are superior to factory ammo for their needs. If you don't know the difference or care that's fine with me but it's disgusting to me that you would badmouth someone for wanting to get what they paid for. Redding plays the theme of making "the" products you need to be competitive and Redding's prices reflect it.

I find it odd that Redding doesn't offer a no questions asked, money back guarantee with proof of purchase for at least 90 days. With that kind of policy even poor customer service is covered.

Boomer

[Echo]

Yeah, #2, but someone a lot smarter than I once said 'Only accurate rifles are interesting' - I think his name was Whelen, or Hatcher, or something. And accuracy is a subjective thing. I have seen targets posted that I would have burned before allowing anyone else to see them, and if cbrick wants perfection, that is his perogative (and perfection is subjective, too). If his experiments show that his equipment is faulty, and the company's tests do not agree, then the company needs to check their QC effort.

I'm a hobbyist, too (not competitive any more - old, ugly, out of condition,out of practice,out of almost everything) , but I want the results of my hobby to satisfying to me. Not necessarily world-record performance, but as good as I can reasonably make it. There's that subjective thing again. Some folks talk about using culled boolits as plinkers - WTH! If it's a cull, IT'S A CULL, and won't be as accurate as our best effort, so is less likely to hit the can, or rock, that we typically shoot plinkers at.

Hmmm... I see I'm starting to rant. Gilda said, 'Never Mind'... but . . .

Back on track - when I was a Management Consultant I would occasionally ask my client if he was running a business, or a social service agency. Hiring family members, or disadvantaged folks, may be laudable, but the bottom line is that the business comes first, and employees MUST be able to do the job. If they can't adequately perform the job they are in, then they should be allowed to move to some other venue where they might be able to excell. And when that job is Customer Service, THAT is where the rubber meets the road and they had better do it right, or ELSE! Don't know if this (social service agency) is a problem @ Redding, but CS is the second-most important function of a company (quality product is first), as Redding is finding out...

[Geraldo]

The problem with it is the ram and the dies do not align. Put a shell-holder in the ram, screw a die into the press, place a cartridge case in the shell-holder and it doesn't matter if its virgin brass, fire formed brass, straight wall brass or bottle neck brass, raise the ram slowly and when the case mouth gets to the die it is not aligned, it is not in the center of the die, the case is well off to the left side of the die. If you continue to raise the ram you get to watch the case tip to the right as the case mouth hits the chamfered edge of the die so the case mouth can enter the die, you don’t need to measure anything, it’s so far off just watch it happen. My first thought (with the first press) was that the case wasn't straight so I rotated the brass 180 degrees and it did it again with exactly the same result, the left side of the case hits the left side of the die and tips to the right.

Did you rotate the shellholders during this experiment? I ask because I tried to replicate your results on my T-7 and found that the cases almost always lean toward the opening cut in the shellholders (4 different RCBS).

[cbrick]

You clearly have an anger management problem.

Redding, incidentally, offered a full refund here and that offer was rejected.

To get back to this Mr. klw . . . that is a blatant lie by redding. NO they did not offer me a full refund or a partial refund or any other kind of refund or a new "workable" press or anything else from Redding. What they offered me was no, we don't need to see the second press, don't send it back there is nothing wrong with it, just buy RCBS from now on. They did suggest I return it to the store where I bought it but that is hardly Redding offering me any kind of refund. And if the store refuses to take it back which they did??? hhmmm? In a way the store is correct, they didn't make a bad press, Redding did and the store already shipped one back even if it was my dime. Redding offered me no recourse whatsoever.

Redding also slandered my name in emails to people that have no standing in this case. You of coarse are free to believe Redding over me if that makes you feel good but I suggest you do not watch the video when its completed.

Rick

[Willbird]

Redding also slandered my name in emails to people that have no standing in this case. You of coarse are free to believe Redding over me if that makes you feel good but I suggest you do not watch the video when its completed.

Rick

Actually this statement is not true.

I emailed Redding and told them that if what you said was true that they wronged you, and that as a long term redding customer I had some concerns about being a customer in the future.

So I took your side in this and complained, I DID have standing in this case. Their reply is only slander if it is untrue and was said to cause harm.

Also not that I doubt your complaint about the bullet molds, but to be fair you should say "they wanted to see them but I never bothered to send them back"

Bill

[45nut]

If at any time a company insists on volume over quality and precision then someone will get caught with a bad product, more than likely it will take someone with above average skill and knowledge in our , ahem, "hobby" to catch a QC issue in these times of "panic buying" and shortages across the spectrum of the shooting industry.
There are people buying reloading equipment now far exceeding industry standards of years past due to the shortages of ammunition across the counters of walmart and other retailers.

People are looking for options in keeping their newly acquired guns more than just paperweights and this drives people here and other forums in seeking options to the shortages and the high prices caused by those same shortages.

That is putting extreme pressure on all vendors and manufacturers in the shooting sports and in seeking to meet demand their may be some substandard equipment shipped, that is certain since all machinery is somehow dependent on humans and obviously no human is exempt from mistakes, including yours truly.

Redding is in business to make money and to make money they have to sell product, to sell product they rely on advertising and a reputation of quality since 1946.



http://www.redding-reloading.com/pag...alquality.html

We the customers are part and parcel of the "Total Quality Team."

If something is wrong it is part of their mission statement to make it right, that's all Rick was after.

There is a law on the books because manufacturers were taking advantage of us called the "lemon law", primarily enforced against auto and truck makers but it applies to all consumer goods and certainly would here.
Simply because their may be personality conflicts between Redding and Rick should not exempt Redding from making good on their slogan of total quality and "Don't ship it if you wouldn't buy it!"
IF we as "consumers" of any reloading equipment have no voice and are expected to merely toss it out and try again then we are doomed.

I am not pleased their is a thread calling out Redding here, but there is an issue and if we are to merely shut up and accept lemons then there will be millions more shipped to us from every corner.

I fear volume over quality may soon be exposed industry wide. I certainly hope for the best but the experts at Bear Stearns , Lehman Bros. and AIG were the ones that crippled their industry also.

Let's not always assume the industry insiders are our allies, and we all know how much the whistle blower is despised.

The canary in our coal mine may be ill.

[Willbird]

I guess you have to decide who to believe.

I'd sure like to see proof that the press is bad. It is hard to believe with all the folks we have here that nobody has access to a CMM.

Bill

[monadnock#5]

In the Book of Job we learn that at his darkest moment of despair, having lost his health, his wives, his children, his land and all his stock, it was then that three of his peers approached him and demanded that he confess the sin(s) that had caused God to deprive him of everything he held dear on this plain of existence. That's what I saw in this thread when I first tuned in. Perhaps Rick would agree that he should have bought a Lee press at this juncture, but that hardly addresses the $900 of defective products he now owns.

Rick and I have never been buddies. I've no doubt that Rick would have preferred someone with more stature and that he liked better than me to support him. When I saw no one else step up, I did.

In the course of this thread I have injected my own hidden agenda. That's where the rants on press runout came from. Rick has been quite tolerant of my agenda pursuits. Any bump that doesn't call into question his knowledge, abilities and integrity is a good bump.

Thank you Boomer Mikey for the treatise you presented on the issue of runout. It obviously took you much time to type it up. The advise within is as well presented and clear as any advise I have seen printed on this Board. Thank you. I will put your lessons to good use in the near future.

[PineTreeGreen]

I recently bought a .300/221 bbl.(300 Whisper) from Match Grade Machine. My intent is to shoot IHMSA with this bbl.
Last week I ordered a #301 SAECO mould from Graf&Son. Today I cast about 30 boolits and dug out my calipers. When I started to look at the castings.something wasn't right. I went to Redding's printed catalog,Graf's web site and Redding's web site and sure enough they all listed the #301 as a gc'ed mould. The one I got from Graf is PLAIN base. We'll see what happens.
It seems like the cherry was not set up right.

[Fossil]

Hi All.
Iam new to this site, in all honesty I joined because while "Guesting" ,this thread really got my attention!
Any update on when to expect the video ?

Must admit, my only press was a Lyman All American, and I sort of lost that to a brother in law after the divorce.
It never let me down though.

[Gelandangan]

cbrick,
it has been over 6 months since the last post on this thread.

What is the conclusion?
Is there a valid problem?
Did Redding fix the problem?

[cbrick]

What is the conclusion?

Nothing has changed, I'm still out $900.00

Is there a valid problem?

Yes, of coarse there is.

Did Redding fix the problem?

No, Redding has done nothing. The recoarse from Redding is zero. The mould I had fixed (at a cost to me of about $60.00) by having the driving bands machined. The press is useless but since it doesn't throw spent primers all over like the Rockchucker I do sometimes use it to de-cap. Pretty expensive decapper huh?

Buy Redding if you must but as for me, I'll take Redding's wise advice and buy RCBS. RCBS will honor their warranty and fix any problem but even bigger than that . . . they won't send out emails slandering you . . . which Redding did to me rather than fix THEIR problems.

Rick

[JesterGrin_1]

Well Darn I was looking into some 35 Whelen Die's from Redding but now I may have to look some place else.

[quasi]

Redding makes the best full line of reloading tools. I will continue to buy their products.

[1hole]

"...it deflected the consumer's attention from the real question. "Who makes the best press on the market in terms of bullet/ boolit to case concentricity and on target accuracy?"

Ah, "best press" and .002" runout? If only it were that simple!

First, the "best" press would have to be an arbor press using hand dies; we don't do that. NONE of our threaded die bench presses can be counted on to be best, not even on a provable average!

A press is only the means of pushing a die into and withdrawing it from a die, the dies do the work so the press is not nearly as critical as some believe it to be, bullet bullet runout depends on much more than that. In fact that's likely the least influential of a long string of things; the cases themselves, the sizer and how it's used, the expander and method of use, and the seating die all contribute a lot (percentage wise) to runout. I suppose we could say whichever one was our biggest error contributor would be our own most critical. ?

At least a modest amount of 'slop' in the fit of a ram is actually a help for making concentric ammo. No press can force a case into a die straight, it will do that of its own accord unless the press interferes. Slight degrees of angular error between the ram and die can be accomidated without injury IF there's enough slack in the ram-to-body and/or shell holder-to-case fit to allow cases to self center into the die.

I have a machinest's magnetic tool base with a .001" dial indicator. I use four pressses; a cast iron Rock Chucker II, an OLD cast iron Lyman six station turret with a pretty worn, floppy ram and two of the very small Lee aluminum alloy "C" type "Reloader" presses. I've checked the die spring of each while FL sizing .30-06 using the same batch of cases, same Forster BR dies and Imperial lube. The Lyman turret was the worst of course (forget how bad but it was way over 10 thou), the RC sprung 3 thou. Surprise! Both of the small Lee presses had too little spring to measure! Not saying the Lees are the "strongest" but they were the most rigid! That seems to be true of all of Lee's alum alloy presses, they are VERY rigid within the limits of their strength and that rigidity seems to make it easier to make concentric ammo than many people believe.

I have a concentricity gauge with a .0001" dial indicator. It's tested the runout of .22-250 ammo made from the same batch of ten neck turned cases while using the same dies/shell holder in all four of my presses. With proper die adjustment and press operation to compensate for the nature of each press, I found no statistically significant runout differences in the ammo made with any of my four presses. My test series was too small to have great statistical validity but it sure proved to me that the press used to load is NOT a critical eliment in accuracy but good tecniques and methods are!

I have also gage tested significant amounts of ammo made with more than thirty sets of dies of various brands and models. I've found as much average variablity between dies of the same brand as beween most brands. Touting "brand "X" is always the best" will be hard for anyone to prove with a gauge and more than one set of dies!

The Redding Comp and Forster BR dies (only) do have a small but clear AVERAGE advantage for better average concentricity. But, if/when the manufactoring tolerances of any individual die's parts/machining adds the right way it will load as well as any die we could wish. Sadly, that perfection rarely occurs but even the worst of our dies are usually quite good. In fact, the only really poor sizer die I have found was from a company that's been out of business for decades!

Without a straight and consistant case neck to work with nothing else matters a lot, at least not for me. No matter the seating die, I get much better (average) case neck concentricity from Lee's simple and inexpensive collet neck sizers than from any other type or brand of die. It does have a moving part that some folks have difficulty learning to use well, it's not a simple "push the case in and pull the case out" thing so they would do better with a more conventional neck sizer. And a simple neck turner can do wonders for uniforming most necks before sizing.

Bottom line, don't expect to buy any press or dies and see magic things happen to concentricity. It just ain't that simple.

[Recluse]

Nothing has changed, I'm still out $900.00

No, Redding has done nothing. The recoarse from Redding is zero. The mould I had fixed (at a cost to me of about $60.00) by having the driving bands machined. The press is useless but since it doesn't throw spent primers all over like the Rockchucker I do sometimes use it to de-cap. Pretty expensive decapper huh?

Rick,

Bad as I hate lawyers and courtrooms. . . However, there is no doubt in my mind that I'd drag this thing into Small Claims Court.

The amounts of settlement/recourse/damages/etc for Small Claims Court are usually capped at $10,000--so you're well under that amount. In addition, rarely any reason you would need to retain an attorney to represent you. You have the equipment and you have the proof, and in addition, you have written statements (e-mails) from Redding themselves.

I'd simply file the claim, let a court date get set, bide your time and then get someone from Redding inside the courtroom and get everything that occurred on the record.

In addition, from your locale, you have some folks that could be extremely credible witnesses on your behalf.

I think a huge deciding factor on your behalf would be the fact that you own so many Redding products and have been so loyal to them in the past.

Have no idea what it costs to file a Small Claims Court scenario out there, but a quick phone call or google search could probably give you a quick idea. At the very least, win-lose-or draw, you'd get your pound of flesh with somebody from Redding, and after all you've been through, THAT would be worth the filing fee.

Buy Redding if you must but as for me, I'll take Redding's wise advice and buy RCBS. RCBS will honor their warranty and fix any problem but even bigger than that . . . they won't send out emails slandering you . . . which Redding did to me rather than fix THEIR problems.

Rick

I'd say the e-mails would be very good evidence in a Small Claims Court case. This is also an instance where a good gunwriter could sure have an interesting time. Nice story fodder: "Good Brand Gone Bad--Where Did Redding Go Wrong?" Your story plus the e-mail responses about you just might get some things changed so far as the way Redding does business.

I've read and re-read this entire thread the past day or so. I'm looking at some precision dies for 30-06 and was considering Redding until my memory tapped me on the noggin and reminded me of your experience. I do believe I'm going to hold off on purchasing anything Redding for a while.

And, quite honestly, the $900 you're out of is chump change to Redding in terms of what it'd take to square you up. But that $900 could easily grow to become a huge stinkin' albatross hanging around their neck.

I'd seriously consider the Small Claims Court filing. You file, you pay your fee, and then you simply wait for your date to come up. No hassles. No having to meet with lawyers. No constant one expense after another. No continuances or any other (typical) nonsense. It's pretty simple and non-stressful.

It's still an American way to "have your day in court."

[Rick459]

keep in mind that he is using a Forster Co-Ax press for this test. having just purchased a Forster Co-Ax i too am getting les than .001 runout using the Co-Ax and the collet die. even when using my forster bench rest dies with the Co-Ax my runout is .001 or less. but i do not use the expander ball in the die and expand the necks in another step. that's why they invented the bushing sizer dies to eliminate the runout that is created by the expander ball and presses that are mass produced and the alignment of the ram to the press just being off a hair.
Rick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg

[Willbird]

keep in mind that he is using a Forster Co-Ax press for this test. having just purchased a Forster Co-Ax i too am getting les than .001 runout using the Co-Ax and the collet die. even when using my forster bench rest dies with the Co-Ax my runout is .001 or less. but i do not use the expander ball in the die and expand the necks in another step. that's why they invented the bushing sizer dies to eliminate the runout that is created by the expander ball and presses that are mass produced and the alignment of the ram to the press just being off a hair.
Rick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg

Also the bushing neck dies let you adjust how much the neck is being sized down. In 22-250 for example many brands of brass in most normal FL dies get sized down .008" before the neck expander ball gets dragged back through the neck to open it back up .006". The drag through expander does not work bad if it just opens things up .001 to .002 to keep everything consistent, and having a neck bushing allows you to get just that.

I don't think the OP would take his money back if it was offered. He did not even send back the bullet molds he said were bad for Redding to have a look at them.

Bill

[cbrick]

I don't think the OP would take his money back if it was offered. He did not even send back the bullet molds he said were bad for Redding to have a look at them. Bill

You can keep saying that all you want, it changes nothing. It is a blatant lie so just keep saying it.

Redding may have told you that they wanted the moulds back but that sure as h*ll ain't what they told me. Redding told me "DO NOT SEND THEM BACK, WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM".

You are welcome to believe whatever you want Willbird but until you know the facts instead of what it is you would like to believe I suggest you stop calling me a liar.

Rick

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

Did you rotate the shellholders during this experiment? I ask because I tried to replicate your results on my T-7 and found that the cases almost always lean toward the opening cut in the shellholders (4 different RCBS).

Cbrick,

Did you ever do this? Geraldo posts a very valid "experiment".