Modern Combat and the 30-30

[Scrounger]

I'll back that statement if you'll remove "some' from the last line...

[EDK]

For close work, sure. I think Jeff Cooper called it a "Brooklyn Special" since pistol-caliber carbines were restricted there. He liked the idea well enough to refer to leverguns chambered in 44 or 45 as "Kansas City Specials" in the same article but I can't remember why. I think it had something to do with using 45 colt or 44 special lever actions as entry weapons in urban areas.

"Brooklyn" and "Kansas City" refer to the location of the correspondents. It appeared in Coopers Column in GUN AND AMMO and also in THE GARGANTUAN GUNSITE GOSSIP, volume 1, pages 680 and 692. Losing Colonel Cooper still saddens me.

[jh45gun]

OK all the crap they put out today better? LOL

[JSnover]

"Brooklyn" and "Kansas City" refer to the location of the correspondents. It appeared in Coopers Column in GUN AND AMMO and also in THE GARGANTUAN GUNSITE GOSSIP, volume 1, pages 680 and 692. Losing Colonel Cooper still saddens me.

Thanks for refreshing my memory. He did assign the nicknames based on where his followers wrote from.. At the time I was putting together a blue-collar defensive battery. I liked the idea so much I bought a marlin 1894 in .357 since I already had dies for it.

[Boerrancher]

I have 4 guns that I do not feel handicapped at all with when I hear things going awry down here in the valley. All of which are lever guns, and I just grab what ever one is the closest. I heavily rely on my winnie 94 30-30 the most, followed by my winnie 92 45LC, it is a toss up between my mod 66 in 44-40, or my Marlin 94 in 357mag. I have killed many a running 'yote stone cold dead between 150 and 200 yds with all of those rifles. With ammo positioned in various pockets I can keep up a steady rate of fire for a long, long time. It was posted earlier about the 30-30 being hands down better than the 7.62x39, which I have fired a lot of and been fired at a number of times with, and all I can say is I will take my 30-30 lever gun over any SKS or AK type rifle any day. I can shoot farther, flatter, and more accurate, with more energy delivered on target than the 7.62x39 ever dreamed of.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

9.3X62AL

"There were 6 pre-64 Winchester 94s in 30-30 at my first duty station." I always thought the lever 30-30 or 357 Magnum was a very fine patrol rifle, and would have chosen same if the agency had authorized the option."

Same here. My first duty station with OSP had all the patrol cars equiped with pre-64 M94s that were shot very little. As the recruit there I got the oldest patrol car assigned to me every shift. No one else drove it which was fine with me. Besides a few rattels the old Dodge 440s would still hit 'light speed" on the freeways. It also had a very nice saddle ring M94. I had it zeroed for the issues ammo and filed the next notch on the slide so it was a perfect 200 yard zero with my reload of 125 gr Sierra SP over enough H335 to give it 2450 fps. As the recruit I always patroled the secondary roads and got the off the wall calls out in the hinterlands of NE Oregon. The "troopers" always worked the freeways to get the "rocks in the box" for stud book credit. That was fine with me. I would carry 3 rounds in my shirt pocket and managed to smoke numerous coyotes with that load. I'd just slide the sight slide back the one notch and slip one round into the mag. Then a simple lever put the 125 gr load up the spout. I also frizbee'd a few rock chucks with that load.

If we read Col. Coopers writings on the "scout" rifle we find he valued the M94 30-30 carbine as the first of the "scout" rifles. All it needed was the addition of a receiver sight (the scout scope was not necessary). I have a scout mount for my M94 carbine (it wears a receiver sight also) and it is indeed a fast handling rifle for such a purpose. I would not have a problem using a M94 in a civilian "combat" role and often times that is what I carry. The new Hornady LeveRevolution ammuntion is a leap forward in ammo for them.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

From my views on the news, much to my dismay, modern combat is done from the air with missles and rockets. Armed combat occurs on a "grab and go" when a team inserts into a house to get a bad guy intel has scoped out. On occasions weapons fire is exchanged from some great distance.
I would have no problems going into a battle carrying a lever 30-30. I would like to hear from recent troops overseas if my perception on modern combat is correct. Thanks, Gianni

Your perception is incorrect. You've been watching the history channel too much. The high speed, low drag crap always gets the attention. The spec op "operators" are always far more interesting than infantry grunts Ican criticise here because I was both). Then their are the pilots. Their great, just ask them.

There are still lots of infantry (Soldiers and Marines) in Iraq and Afghanastan doing the traditional infantry role in platton, company and battalion sized operations. There's little glory in it, lots of danger and lots of sweat. That's why it's not reported as the major news folks haven't wanted to go with infantry for some time. They'd rather stay in Bagdad or Kabul and get their info from PA types in air conditioned briefing rooms with tables of refreshments provided.

The M4 and it's attendant lack of "stopping power" is only successfull because of our Soldier/Marine's marksmanship ability and the rate of firepower (we can afford to shoot 30 rounds at one insurgent). Your Ranger buddy would have gotten his ass kicked in the 173d for shooting that way in Viet Nam when I was with them (May '65 - June '66). He probably was right though. But then who owns South Viet Nam these days. We can wine all about the politicians and "Peace with honor" but the fact is "we" lost the war in Viet Nam. Perhaps if our Soldiers/Marines would have shot better they casualty rate wouldn't have been as high and we might not have lost. Hard to say but infantry that can't shoot (that means aimed fire to hit the enemy not "spray and pray") can't win. That was proven over and over in the last 200 years.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

I'll back that statement if you'll remove "some' from the last line...

Not all movies today are bad- The "Mummy" movies are pretty good and you have ones like "Hildago", "Appoloosa", "3:10 to Yuma", "Iron Will", "Master and Commander", "Quigly Down Under" etc. that are still decent filcks. They aren't all of the caliber of "The Quiet Man", "The Big Country", "Will Penney" or "Tom Horn", but they do give you hope.

[jh45gun]

Selleck makes good westerns but not enough of them and I just watched Appoloosa and while OK was not that great still it beat most of the crap coming out of hollyweird just because it was a western.

[45&30-30]

jh45gun, I was reluctant to watch Appoloosa the first time. I watched it two more times after that. I loved the one liners and monologues. Like how they describe their work, "I don't kill people for a living. I enforce the law. Killing is sometimes a byproduct." or the realtionship between the two hired guns, "It's hard to like a man who doesn't drink a little," "Hard but not impossible." and who can forget what a man likes about a woman, “she chews her food good”. I could go on, but this movie was in the dialogue. Loved it.

[jh45gun]

Oh I am not saying it was all bad just that it would be better if hollyweird did not hype the heck out of them that way even if it is an average movie you would not mind it as much.

[45&30-30]

I understand what you mean, that is why I haven't watched tv for 10 or 12 years and radio for the last year. I don't need someone giving me my opinion of something before I see it. It is refreshing to see something from an untainted point of view. Kind of like politics. The media chooses your candidate for you. If we could get America to stop watching the tv and listening to the radio they could learn to think again and form their own opinions. This country would be a different place, even if people tried it for three months they would see a different side of life they never dreamed was there. Propoganda is powerful, no matter which side you are privy to.

[BRYAN]

Had to comment on this issue. As a soldier and rifleman, I am sure that I could use any rifle effectively, but some do some jobs better. While its fun to wax nostalgic about fine leverguns, anyone carrying one onto the modern battlefield would do himself and his buddies a disservice. A good rifleman may hold his own with his levergun against a wet behind the ears recruit with an M-4, but a trained soldier will take out a lot of cowboys in a very short time. This notion that all soldiers armed with M-16's and varients "spray and pray" is not accurate. There are those times when the ability to get a lot of lead in the air, to get the other teams head down long enough for you to find better real estate, will save the day. The M-4 with a CCO or ACOG, paired with a rifleman can put sustained, accurate fire on target that a levergun can't compare to. When I went on patrol in Sadre City, I would have felt naked as a newborn babe with a levergun. For home defense, stateside duty, basic survival needs a levergun has a lot to offer, but not on the modern battlefield.

[Bret4207]

We'll we aren't talking about the modern battlefield- we're talking about wannabees dressing up in camo and playing ninja games on the weekends and then mouthing off about it on various websites like The High Road. Many of us here are former military and realize the huge difference between life on the internet and real life. Should the USA become a 3rd world country (very likely with the Chocolate Messiah running things and the general "ME, ME, ME!!!" attitude these days) then I want the biggest, fastest, and the mostest in weaponry I can get. While I don;t own anything like a taticoolmallninjaextremeplasticmainbattlerifle, I think this old Marine could give at least a little trouble to anyone attempting to remove me and mine from this earthly existence.

[Rodfac]

Bryan, you said it right. If we're talking about modern combat (you mean desert or jungle or what?) then something that puts out the rounds quickly and relatively accurately is what will do the job. Fire and movement...basic doctrine since the end of the WWl. Pin 'em to the ground with overwhelming firepower, flank 'em out into the open with the rest of your people, then kill 'em when they run. 'Nam, Iraq, Afganistan, pretty much the same, tho distances vary. A .30-30 will not do that. Give any Marine or soldier the choice...he'll take the "Mouse-gun" anytime. ?More "smack" with a bigger caliber? Yep, but that's not what was issued. The tactics revolve around the issue weaponry. House to house, as in Iraq, changes things radically. If you want to do the job, and can't use overwhelming explosive force, (civilians casualties etc), then you can expect up to 50% casualties, if the bad guys are motivated. And the more firepower you can deliver into the dwelling at VERY close range, the better. Rodfac, 'Nam 70, my first tour.

[jh45gun]

The thing I think some of you are overlooking is that the average gun owner is not going to buy a black rifle or AK/SKS ect for a military type action yea some folks will and some will have all the ammo to feed it some will not. The thing is if SHTF most gun owners will grab what they have and what they can feed ammo to. For many that might be a shotgun or a 22 LR. Others there favorite deer rifle. No a 22 cannot defeat body armor but it could shoot the legs out of a combatant and put him out of action or some other place that flesh is present.

I think we are not talking about lever guns being issued to troops but if it would work if you the john Q citizen needed a gun. In that case I think it would. If we ever got attacked think of the movie Red Dawn they used guerrilla tactics and while later they used captured guns at first they used what they had. Yea its fiction but it made sense. Our forfathers in the Revolutionary period fought the Brits like indians too they were some of the first guerrilla fighters

[waksupi]

If I had my druthers, I'd druther not go up against a bunch of old elk hunters up in the mountains , or antelope hunters out on the plains, with their bolt action rifles. Something tells me things may be a bit uncomfortable on the receiving end.

[Old Ironsights]

... No a 22 cannot defeat body armor but it could shoot the legs out of a combatant and put him out of action or some other place that flesh is present.

IIRC back during one of the Balkan conflicts the (Chech?) Olympic Pistol Team (holed up in a cemetary) held off all commers with their .22 Free Pistols by poking out Eyeballs...

I think we are not talking about lever guns being issued to troops but if it would work if you the john Q citizen needed a gun. In that case I think it would. If we ever got attacked think of the movie Red Dawn they used guerrilla tactics and while later they used captured guns at first they used what they had. Yea its fiction but it made sense. Our forfathers in the Revolutionary period fought the Brits like indians too they were some of the first guerrilla fighters

If you need a MBR, even a single shot smoothie will get you one. Remember the "Liberator"?

[tom barthel]

I am not a member of the following forum, I found it on a search, and found it amusing , I thought a few others would to. If anyone has not had enough reasons, pro or con, of whether the 30-30 is a valid round for anything, including combat, then this is a good thread to help your side. Before you start it is 8 pages and last count, 179 posts.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=421537

A hit is a hit with anything. A miss is a miss. Put the bullet in the right place and it WILL work. That's anything from a .22 short to a .50 caliber. As for combat. Check with any big city police department and see what the gangs are using. Use what you got and don't look back. In combat, he who hesitates is lost. If you are planning combat, prepare. If you are planning a hunt, prepare. Remember what was used before we had all these super whiz-bang long range monster killing shoulder breaking calibers.

[45&30-30]

Got Rio Bravo tonight, half way through and that Stumpy steals the show, Carlos adds some flavor to. That Colt sure looks small on Wayne's hip. More like a chicken leg than a hog leg on him.