.38S&W Leading problems Help

[Forrest r]

Seeing this thread reminds me of a mold I haven't used in years. A Raphine 150gr hb fn mold that casts a 150gr fn bullet that has a hollow base and +/- .361" diameter bullet with range scrap. A picture of them sized to .359"

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[DougGuy]

The antimony in linotype will increase bullet diameter as bullets drop from the mould.

By how many tenths of a thousandth? And how many weeks/months shelf time for this growth? He needs thousandths, not tenths.

[243winxb]

Any chance there is some Bismuth in the OPs "lead"

DougGuy By how many tenths of a thousandth?

Increase about .0018" or more , using antimony.


From Redding-

Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast f rom wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.

Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature.

[georgerkahn]

For what it's worth, I have two revolvers chambered in .38 S&W/ Colt N P. The S&W Victory was a chronic "leader" similar to yours, which I resigned myself to it being "the nature of this revolver". Bore had slugged at 0.359", and I was shooting my-cast un-sized bullets cast at this diameter. I later traded a rifle for a Colt Official Police in Colt N P, which came with 40 rounds of ammo. I shot 20 in the Colt -- zero leading, so I thought, "hmmmm -- what will these do in the Smith?". First, however, I pulled a bullet, and they measure 0.361"! Going back to range with the Smith, I shot fifteen rounds with alllmost zero leading! For *me*, this may in fact have been the solution to my leading problem. I could not find a 0.361" mould, so I ordered and received one from Buffalo Arms -- they in-house use CNC machinery to make quite the gorgeous looking product from SAECO/Redding blank blocks. Mine is a 2-cavity, and I have yet to use it -- anxiously waiting for a dry, warm day to go out to garage and cast. BUT, my "bet" (actually, super-hope) is that my cast .361" bullets will also prove lead-free. As an added note, Graf & Sons purveys Missouri cast bullets in .361" -- https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/21168 -- which I'd look into if I had not the mould, .361" sizing dies, etc.
Just a thought or two -- good luck! For lead removal, I've used a bit of copper Chore Girl wrapped on a used brush... and/or a Lewis Lead Remover tool.
geo

[mattw]

I second Missouri Cast Bullets. Here is a link to the size you really would need. BTW, they will sell direct at a decent price and always check their sale page. They also will sell small sample packs, good way to test a mould before you buy it!

http://missouribullet.com/results.ph...5&secondary=29

[243winxb]

And how many weeks/months shelf time for this growth? He needs thousandths, not tenths.

Sized bullets after many years dont grow in diameter. I tested it. Alloys with Bismuth may grow.



A sizing die marked .358" can produce bullets of different diameters. Near pure lead will be smaller after sizing.
Linotype will be be larger after sizing.
Harder alloys spring back more after coming out of the sizing die.

Oven heat treated bullets, water cooled, , with 2% antimony will change hardness over about 2 weeks. Diameter does not grow.


The OPs bullets need more diameter first, then maybe a harder alloy around 12BHN 50/50 lube should work.

Have a great day. Time for me to go shooting.

[Outpost75]

SAAMI maximum PSI for the 38 S&W is 14,500 . The alloy has to be strong enough so the bullet doesnt encounter Plastic deformation.

Your "plastic deformation" is what allows bullets of correct hardness to obturate and make a positive gas seal in the cylinder throats, which prevents the gas lancing leading mechanism the OP is talking about. Hard, undersized bullets are the cause of most leading. Factory swaged lead bullets in the .38s are fully cold worked and recrystallized grain structure of about 3% Sb content, seldom exceeding 8 BHN, similar to 1:40 tin-lead in our usual air cooled castings. Hard bullets are neither necessary nor recommended in standard pressure loads below 16,000 psi.

[9.3X62AL]

I always reserve the right to be wrong in matters like these involving varying alloys, obturation, and effects of pressure on those alloys. I don't have a strong scientific base upon which to make assessments, either. I only know what I have seen and learned over 38 years of casting and shooting.

Cast bullets MUST FIT THE THROAT(S) of the involved firearm(s). Every other element of the equation lines up behind that requirement. Loose bullets lead bores and firing environments--well-fit bullets do not. Smokeless powder impulses cannot be relied upon to "bump up" lead bullets, excepting the hollow-based designs spoken of in earlier posts. Too-tight expander spuds can defeat your attempts to size bullets properly, esp. using softer alloys--MAKE SURE that your expander spud isn't reducing bullet diameters. MOST MODERN DIE SETS ARE STRONGLY-BIASED TOWARD JACKETED-BULLET USAGE. Be a carpenter--measure twice, cut once.

Throats vary widely in this caliber--one of mine is .359" (Colt PP), another is .361" (S&W Reg. Pol.), and two are .363" (S&W M&P and Webley-Enfield). The first two use an NOE copy of Lyman #358477 that drops at .362" and cleans up in a .361" H&I die, the last two use a 202 grain NEI #169A that drops at .364+ and cleans up completely in a Lyman .363" H&I die. I use a combination of dies from an RCBS Cowboy 38 S&W set and an RCBS T/C 9mm Makarov die set to create ammunition for this caliber. (The Maks vary, as well).

[DougGuy]

Sized bullets after many years dont grow in diameter. I tested it. Alloys with Bismuth may grow.

Well, I'm truly sorry you are as misinformed as you are, but you are.

Cast boolits *do* grow in diameter as they age harden, depending on the antimony in the alloy, some will grow very little, others will grow enough that when newly sized, are a light drag fit in cylinder throats, but loaded ammo with the same boolits won't chamber in a month because the boolits are larger. Been there, done that, with MY OWN 44 SBH. Customers have sent me boolits along with cylinders that were sized when cast, and they are miking larger. 500 S&W and 475 Linebaiugh, 480 Ruger, where boolits are quite long for caliber, will grow exponentinally more than a shorter fatter boolit. Got some 500 S&W WFN boolits, they were .5015" up .0015" from when they were sized some months previously.

A sizing die marked .358" can produce bullets of different diameters. Near pure lead will be smaller after sizing.
Linotype will be be larger after sizing.
Harder alloys spring back more after coming out of the sizing die.

All true yes, but the SAME forces that give harder alloy more springback than softer alloy? Are the very same forces that causes diameter to GROW as they age...

Oven heat treated bullets, water cooled, , with 2% antimony will change hardness over about 2 weeks. Diameter does not grow.

If you say so. I never tested or measured oven heat treated boolits, and never use them in my loading experiences.

The OPs bullets need more diameter first, then maybe a harder alloy around 12BHN 50/50 lube should work.

Everyone has said his boolits need to fit the throats. There is ZERO issues with his alloy, his prob is fitment in the throats.

[Argentino]

Argentino

Since there's no leading in the bore it appears to me, as you surmise also, the leading is from gas cutting around the bullet in the cylinder throats. You might try using just plain Pb alloy or find some tin and mix a 40-1 alloy. The linotype has to much antimony, even at that low amount. At the low pressure of your load the bullet isn't obturating at all. A double coat of BLL or a single coat of LLA should be sufficient. Upping the powder charge to 2.4 or 2.7 gr HP38 may also help to obturate the bullet a bit.

Thanks Larry.

I will try to cast some pure lead boolits out of that same WC mold.

I also have an old Lyman#358242 and I´ve been casting some pure lead bullets out of it; they mike at 0,362.
This seems to be a much better choice (just 1 thou under throat dia.) so I will try it soon.
I´ll increase my load up to 2.4 gns of HP38 as you´ve suggested. Maybe a faster powder like bullseye will help to seal the bore better than HP38? I´ll try that too. I know I´m using very light loads but I wanted to start that way in order to take care of that old Colt.

Thanks,
Argie.

[Outpost75]

Thanks Larry.

I will try to cast some pure lead boolits out of that same WC mold.

I also have an old Lyman#358242 and I´ve been casting some pure lead bullets out of it; they mike at 0,362.
This seems to be a much better choice (just 1 thou under throat dia.) so I will try it soon.
I´ll increase my load up to 2.4 gns of HP38 as you´ve suggested. Maybe a faster powder like bullseye will help to seal the bore better than HP38? I´ll try that too. I know I´m using very light loads but I wanted to start that way in order to take care of that old Colt.

Thanks,
Argie.

Pure lead will cast smaller in diameter. Using 1:40 tin-lead (2.5% Sn) will not increase hardness very much, only to about 8 BHN, but will enable better fill-out and about 0.001" larger as-cast diameter.

[Argentino]

Outpost75,
Yes, I was hoping that pure lead might compensate the smaller diameter by expanding easily than my previous alloyed WC bullets. However it seems to be a lot of difference from throat dia. so I will try 1:40 tin/lead or switch to Lyman # 358242.

I appreciate both the data for .38 S&W and Accurate´s mold designs that you´ve uploaded on your previous post.

Thanks,
Argie.

[Outpost75]

Outpost75,
Yes, I was hoping that pure lead might compensate the smaller diameter by expanding easily than my previous alloyed WC bullets. However it seems to be a lot of difference from throat dia. so I will try 1:40 tin/lead or switch to Lyman # 358242.

I appreciate both the data for .38 S&W and Accurate´s mold designs that you´ve uploaded on your previous post.

Thanks,
Argie.

If you have a mold which drops bullets in pure lead at .360"+ and you use a fast-burning powder like Bullseye or TiteGroup, it should slug-up to fit. Best would be for the pure lead bullets to drop about .362" so they could be loaded as-cast and unsized, lubing with 45-45-10 or Lee Liquid Alox. My S&W Victory, S&W Terrier and Webley & Scott Mark IV all have cylinder throats which run .362-.364". My Colt Police Positive and Ruger India model have .359-.360" throats and shoot the 148-grain HBWC .38 Special Remington component bullets very well with 2.5 grains of Bullseye at 1.20" OAL.

[DougGuy]

Don't laugh, but I actually put some Lee C430-310 RF boolits on my vise and smacked them with a ball peen hammer to fill them out before sizing. They shot great! Argie if you are loading wadcutters you may try this, push them through your cylinder throats to size them. I know I know, waaaaaay on out there but hey whatever fills the cylinder throats will stop the leading!

[badgeredd]

Do what you may, but 9.3X62AL speaks the truth. Instead of trying to make an undersized bullet work, spring for a mold of proper size at or very near the .363 throat diameter. ALSO, believe that a soft alloy will definitely shoot much better and will greatly reduce leading or totally eliminate it. I'd use 40:1, 30:1 or 25:1 lead tin OR 25% COWW 75% pure lead with added tin alloy. Al and a former member both told me to do the same and finally I did exactly what they said which gave me the desired results. You aren't generating enough pressure to seal the bullet in the throats so the bullet must fit the throats fully. OR you can ignore others that KNOW and fail. Your choice.

[Argentino]

badgeredd,
not sure if your reply was for me.
If so, I appreciate your input. But let me add that I don´t intend to "do what I may" nor to "ignore others that KNOW"

I´m here asking questions because I want to learn what went wrong with my first attempt reloading .38 S&W.

It is perfectly clear for me now that I need to fill each chamber with a boolit of proper (throat) dia.

Now I´m just trying to find how to do it within my limited options of mold and sizers for this caliber.

Thanks

[Argentino]

Using Lyman #358242 boolits did not work as I expected.

I forgot to mention that I was using .38 SW Spl. Dies. Trying to seat these boolits (at 0.362"dia.) was almost impossible using resized cases.

So I tried to use fire formed ones, but I could n´t get them in the .38 spl seating die.

So right now I have two choices:

-Keep on using .38 spl dies but with a heeled boolit (I have an old .38 Long Colt Ideal tool that might work; I know it cast around 0.362" with pure lead).

-Buy the proper sizing dies for .38 SW and use whatever boolit that is at least .362-.363" (I guess this and only this will allow me to use Lyman#358242)

Will start with the first option, though.

[Outpost75]

If you happen to have a set of 9x18 MAK dies around, those will work fine.

[Argentino]

Nope, I´m afraid I don´t have a 9mm. MAK Die set. But thanks for the input anyway.

I´m thinking about buying a .38 S&W Lee die set.

A couple of questions:

1. Are these dies something more than just a shorter version of .38 spl dies? I mean, both the sizing and seating dies should have bigger diameters than .38 Spl. ones, right?

2. I´m not able to obtain original .38 S&W cases. Would .38 spl trimmed brass work OK? I don´t know if .38S&W brass is supposed to be thinner than .38 spl.
If so, I may find some issues when trying to seat properly sized boolits.

Basically, I´m concerned about being able to seat a 0.362-0.363" boolit by using both .38S&W dies and .38 Spl trimmed brass.

Thanks,
Argie.

[Larry Gibson]

Do you have 9mm dies?