LEE cowboy bullet in a Marlin 94c

[Jack Stanley]

You may very well be right . I normally use gas checks on everything but due to the cost of the little buzzards I'm stepping out of the boat I'm used to .

Yesterday after work I took out ten rounds that I had lube sized in a conventional manner . I used Regular Alox and sized them at .359or so with the Lyman die I have . The ammo was loaded with three point three grains of 700X and while it did not lead the point of impact was a good distance to the left of all the other loads I've used . Including the .357 load that shoots to the same point of aim as my wadcutters do ( so I'd kinda like to leave the sight alone and adjust a mid-power .38 load to fit ) .

The guns I intend to use have chamber throats at or near .359" so now I can order a new die for the Star sizer I think . I still am going to try the liquid Alox/Johnson's paste wax Idea for lube . Also , I lube some with just liqiud Alox to see if I can make that work without leading in the guns .

I may still end up using something like Unique or blue dot for powder . I was encouraged by not finding lead after the 700-x , guess I could have dropped the charge of Bullseye just as easy . Just wanted to try something a bit slower and see what happened .

Jack

[crabo]

I have gotten a little better accuracy with HS6 vs Unique, in my Marlin CB with the 357. (for midrange loads)

[45r]

I get one inch 5 shot and sometimes 10 shot groups at 50 yards with my plain base 180 and 200 grain Mtn Mold boolits using RL-7.I tried and tried to find some other faster powder to shoot better,didn't happen.Rem 7 1/2 primers and 15.8 grains was best doing 1300 fps with the 200LBT style and CCI 550 pimers and 16.5 works great doing 1400 fps with the 180Secant.I can shoot at least 30 rounds with no leading.Faster powders gas cut plain base boolits and don't work well in my 357CB rifle for me.I bet if you tried around 17.0 grains RL-7 with a mag pistol or small rifle primer you would get better accuracy.I size .360 for the 200 with air-cooled WW and size .359 for the 180 Secant heat-treated at 430 degrees and ice water quenched.The Secant feeds very smooth.

[Jack Stanley]

I do use a healthy charge od Accurate Arms number nine in a .357 case using my hundred eighty-five grain LBT . It gives groups similar to yours and even works well in a "N" frame Smith , I kinda like that versatility .
Currently , I'm finding I may have to rely on the LBT in the thirty-eight case because this LEE "cowboy" bullet is coming up short in the accuracy department . I gotta get ready for church right now so I don't have time to type the particulars , how likely does anyone think it is to get a poor mold from Lee ? Regular "production" not a special order bullet or anything like that . I've had better results from two different designs and mold makers in the last day or so , something ain't right here .

Jack

[crabo]

I didn't get any loads I was happy with using the Lee 158 cowboy boolit. I quit using it.

[TCFAN]

I do use a healthy charge od Accurate Arms number nine in a .357 case using my hundred eighty-five grain LBT . It gives groups similar to yours and even works well in a "N" frame Smith , I kinda like that versatility .
Currently , I'm finding I may have to rely on the LBT in the thirty-eight case because this LEE "cowboy" bullet is coming up short in the accuracy department . I gotta get ready for church right now so I don't have time to type the particulars , how likely does anyone think it is to get a poor mold from Lee ? Regular "production" not a special order bullet or anything like that . I've had better results from two different designs and mold makers in the last day or so , something ain't right here .

Jack

Hi Jack

If you think you might have a bad mold in that Lee 158 cowboy I would be happy to send some samples of my boolits to you so you could compare them.

I would also send some of the 125gr. Lee cowboys so you could try them if you are interested.

If you want to try these boolits send me a PM with your address and I will send them right out......Terry

[Jack Stanley]

I've tried seating the LEE bullet out , in , lubed with liquid alox and regular , lubed with paste wax and all of that both sized and unsized . I thought for a minute that maybe there was something wrong with the scope or carbine . So , I loaded up some leftover H&G bullets that I had cast years ago for a friends PPC compitition . I used the same powder charge and it drilled the "X" out of a standard pistol target . The only problem I had with it was I had it seated short and it wanted to catch on the edge of the chamber going in . Since I seated the H&G bullet to 1.510" over all length it hasn't stumbled at all and it still drilled the "X" out .
This afternoon I melted down all the bullets I'd made in the LEE mould and cast a few in the H&G six cavity . Wow , it's been long time since I heated that one up . This week I'll size and lube a few and see if the alloy is part of the problem . After all I was using range scrap and didn't know what it was .

I would like to find a nice thirty-eight load the can work as a standard "service" load in a revolver . I'f it won't shoot worth a hoot in the carbine there isn't much sense in me loading them because I normally shoot the long guns about five times as much as a handgun .

Jack

[crabo]

I had previously stated that I gave up on the 158 Lee CB boolit in my Marlin. I tried a different tack today. I loaded a bunch of different powder and loads for my Marlin 357 using the 125 Lee CB pb.

I used magnum cases and standard primers. WD boolits were sized to .359 and lubed with speedgreen and then coated with LLA. Right now I have my Marlin set up with a 4.5x14 Luepold and a lace-on cheekpiece. (kinda sounds like cheating doesn't it?) I want to eliminate as many variables as I can.

I tried Unique and Universal powder. I have attched the Universal target. The Unique groups were larger than the Universal groups and running 1.75- 2.25.
Now I need to load more of the 6.0 grains of Universal and make sure it is repeatable and see where it impacts compared to my 180 gc boolit. I think it would run out of gas as it gets past 50 yards, but it would certainly work on chickens and pigs.

[fecmech]

Crabo--I have a 2 cav Lee cowboy made about 5 years ago, extremely accurate, great bullet well made mold. About 8 mos. ago I ordered a 6 cav in that bullet and discovered they changed it quite a bit. The meplate was bigger,grease groove in a different location, really pronounced machine tool marks and it did not shoot as well for me. I sold it and decided to live with the 2 cav if I needed a cowboy bullet. My H&G #39 158 rn is every bit as accurate and feeds better to boot.

[NHlever]

I got a chance to shoot some of the Lee Cowboy boolits out of my Winchester 94 Legacy .357 today. The range was busy so I only tried a couple of loads at 50 yards. I was shooting 3.8, and 4.0 grains of W-231 out of .38 Special cases with WSP primers. The boolits were a mix of remelted commercial bullets, and ww sized to .358, and lubed with a generic blue "firm" lube (requires heat) in an RCBS Lube sizer. Five shot groups were running 1", and under sometimes four in half that, and a flier. Since the bullets weren't weighed, etc. that could explain that........ we all know it couldn't have been me! I have more loaded with heavier charges, and some with titegroup, and sized to .359. My Security Six likes boolits sized to .357, and didn't shoot the 3.8 grain load too well. Sizing that boolit to .357 wipes out a lot of the crimp groove.

[Jack Stanley]

So far in the thirty-eight special case I am at 3.6 grains of 700X and using the H&G number 316 that weighs in a one fifty-five . I seat them at 1.515" and they feed good not bungles or misfeeds in over three hundred rounds .
For the most part accuracy is twice as goos as the LEE bullet I tried . I am using just a touch of LLA on the bullets and letting them dry . Then I'll coat them with a bit of Corbin dip lube which shows the same accuracy as Paste wax . They are then run through the Star .359 die and lubed with a mix of 50/50 Alox and LBT blue .

These seem to wotk well in both handgun and carbine . The only problem I have now is when loading , invariably a little lube gets all over the loaded ammo . I really don't like the greasy feeling on the ammo and usually give the ammo a few turns in Attrition milled corn cobs to clean them up . Since the "dry lubes" used on the bullet before sizing are a bit tacky it is gonna take longer to clean this up than I like turning in the tumbler .

I got a bit more work to do before I get to pull the handle ten thousand times for the load

Jack

[Shotgun Luckey]

I bought the mould from fecmech and it's working great for me. Granted, there are some ugly tool marks on the nose, but they shot well for me. I sized them in my Star and loaded them up in .38 cases over 3.8 grn of Win 231 with cci small pistol primers. I also ran them through a factory crimp die. I didn't punch paper with them, but I hit the steel at the cowboy match when I did my part. They fed great through my '66 Winchester, performed well in the revolvers, and the Marlin 1894 had a bit of a problem when racking the action fast, but accuracy seems fine. Infact, if I could find another 6-banger at a good price, I would buy it.

[Jack Stanley]

I loaded up a hundred rounds of the 3.6 grains of 700X into the Federal cases . The ammo had that greasy feel that soft lubes give , something I don't want to deal with for several ammo cans worth of shooting ammo .
I've used a cement mixer that I bought brand new years ago to use as a dedicated brass tumbler and have used it on loaded ammo before . I really don't like tumbling loaded ammo for more than about twenty minutes , no real reason , I just don't . Normally when cleaning off case lube from jacketed bullet rounds that come from the Dillon , twenty minutes is enough to wipe the lube completely .
I tried twenty minutes with the hundred rounds with a bit of citrus based cleaner sprayed into the media . After twenty minutes , it looked like it was still working on the exposed bullet lube on the bullet . After forty minutes a few blobs of lube were still holding media against it . When an hour in the tumbler was over , the bullets looked clean and the cases didn't have the greasy feel to them .
I took them out and shot them side by side with the greasy feeling stuff and the cleaned ammo shot a little better group . Since I had the time , I checked them up against the wadcutter loads that would rip ragged holes with the other carbine ( that would be the one that Barry has now of course ) . The pointy bullets shot about the same but the group was definately more round than the wadcutter bullets .
Thinking that maybe I had enough lube I could increase the charge without leading . I snooped around untill I found load data in an RCBS manual that showed a load of 3.8 of 700X . It didn't take long to adjust the Dillon measure and make up twenty rounds to try , the groups however opened up a bit .

I've tried the bullets with , and without the slight amount of liquid Alox covered with paste wax or Corbin dip lube . So far the carbine shows a preference for the bullets Liquid Aloxed and waxed with the lube groove filled with regular lube . The revolver doesn't seem to care much one way or the other , the accuracy difference can be explained with my poor eyesight . The problem may end up being loading the ammo them cleaning the goo off the ammo so I can get those nice tight groups Well , at least I hope it works out that way when I try another sample

Jack

[Jack Stanley]

Crabo , I meant to ask you . What distance did you fire those groups at ?

Thanks , Jack

[crabo]

Jack, I shot them at 50 yards. I am shooting at an indoor target range. Right now I have my Marlin set up with a 4.5x14 Luepold and a lace-on cheekpiece. I rest it on a bag right in front of the lever and a bag underneath the stock in the rear. I also firelapped the barrel with the LBT paste and put in a Wild West Trigger and a one piece firing pin. I did some polishing on different parts and modified the carrier like in Imashooter's post. I think using magnum cases might have an influence because the boolits don't have to jump as far.

Once my back gets in good enough shape to walk 200 yards, I'll do some testing at 100 yards.

I found that a 23/64ths bit would work to take the bevel out of the 158 grain Lee mold. As soon as I find it, I let you know how that worked out. Sad to say, I don't know where I put the mold.

[Jack Stanley]

That six grain load of Universal in the lower left corner looks good , perhaps I should try that instead of 700X .

I bet I should clean up my bench technique , leaning across a couple of two by fours might not have much consistancy . The scope is a Bushnell 1.5x5 ..... I think . I am thinking that maybe a Leupold four power might be just right but then , I ten to favor the "golden ring" .

I have a pile of bullets "age hardening" , that's code for I don't have time right now to do anything with it . I intend to load them with conventional lube without the paste wax or liquid Alox . I would like to get some decent fifty yard groups and I know it ai't just as easy as shooting half size groups at twenty-five .

Jack

[wiljen]

I think I'd save the 700-x for 45 Acp plinkers where it works well and go with the Universal load. 700 is still in the same burn rate class as Red Dot and titegroup and is probably a bit fast based on other powders we've seen discussed in this thread. If you want a cheaper powder at the same basic burn rate as Universal - give Rex 3 a try. I've been using a lot of it and it is roughly Universal/Unique speed.

[HOSS]

[If I could find a good 180 gr. mold with a good big flat nose that would feed through my carbine I would start developing a deer load in a 357 case.]
Try this in a 38 spc. case old hoss!==rcbs mold 357-180-sil.double cavity mold.
bullet style silhouette,top punch#430 I cast it with no2 alloy or streight
w/w depends how fast you push it.I get great acc. in my colt lightening and
other lever guns.No leading and has a good punch way out.
hope this helps.Check for oal,but it feeds in my rifles with 357 also.
Ever think of altering your feed ?so you can load longer bullets.

[EDK]

The RANCH DOG TLC 359 190 moulds are available...unfortunately only in 2 cavity...and I got mine Thursday night! Things came up that I couldn't cast any boolits yet, but I'll let you know when I do. There's a bunch of guys here and over at Marlin Owners that will be firing this mould up ASAP.

The TLC 432 265 has worked well through my MARLIN Cowboys and an assortment of VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS and BLACKHAWKS in 44 magnum. Lube it like Ranch Dog's tutorial on LLA says and it works great.

Pull up the link at the bottom of the page for Ranch Dog Moulds. I wouldn't "pick my nose" too long since his moulds are popular. I goofed around and didn't get a mould for my 30/30 AND they won't be available until next summer!

[Jack Stanley]

HOSS , I never even considered modifying the rifle for long bullets . I have a LBT mould that works superb using a magnum case or the thirty-eight . I intend to load a bunch and want to do it without the cost of checks .

Wiljen , I have Unique and Universal and after looking at the group Crabo fired , I could force myself to accept a slightly higher velocity it likely would give . I think I'll try it first in the handgun and carbine before I toss out the idea just because it doesn't fit what I originally wanted . With the handgun I can accept larger groups because my eyes are getting worse and four inch barrels don't help . With a carbine and a scope though I ought not have any excuse for not drilling tiny little groups . I can think of the enjoyment after loading ten thousand of the little buggers ; blasting them without having to load for the next ten years

Jack