Winchester LP primer problem

[tazman]

I had a strange problem with ww large pistol this summer. I was shooting my glock 20 and 29 about daily. Loaded a pile of ammo with ww primers and had about one in 10 that didn't go off on first strike. Reset the firing pin and most went off the second time. Now both of those guns do have wolf spring kits. I shot it up and loaded some with ccis and federals. the feds as expected went off every time. I was really curious what the ccis would do because I was allways under the impression they had harder cups then ww. I shot probably a bit more then 500 of them between the two guns and never had one misfire. Just to satisfy my curiosity I loaded up some more with ww out of a different lot and again had the misfires. Havent got around to seeing how they act in my other guns yet and with back surgery this week probably wont get a chance this summer. Just thought id throw it out there though because it was some pretty odd results.

Sounds like a case of extra hard cups on the primers. I think that is what is happening with mine. I still have factory springs in my guns and have had no misfires on that account.
The Winchester WLP primers I have are much harder to seat than the CCI primers I have.
Companies can produce products at times that are a tiny bit out of spec and have it get out the door on them. I have had thin primers from other companies that blew out at the edge under standard loads before. This just went the other direction.

[oldhenry]

I had a strange problem with ww large pistol this summer. I was shooting my glock 20 and 29 about daily. Loaded a pile of ammo with ww primers and had about one in 10 that didn't go off on first strike. Reset the firing pin and most went off the second time. Now both of those guns do have wolf spring kits. I shot it up and loaded some with ccis and federals. the feds as expected went off every time. I was really curious what the ccis would do because I was allways under the impression they had harder cups then ww. I shot probably a bit more then 500 of them between the two guns and never had one misfire. Just to satisfy my curiosity I loaded up some more with ww out of a different lot and again had the misfires. Havent got around to seeing how they act in my other guns yet and with back surgery this week probably wont get a chance this summer. Just thought id throw it out there though because it was some pretty odd results.

Interesting experience. So far my experience has been identical to Tazman's........they all go bang, but are more difficult to seat. However, all of my recent firings with the WLPs has been in RSAs & a 1911 with standard main springs.

When you loaded them did you notice the primers being more difficult to seat?

Thanks for this additional input.

Henry

[Lloyd Smale]

no I didn't feel any undue effort to seat them. Ive used them myself in 1911s and single action revolvers both with action jobs. I have had problems with smith DA guns using them and ccis and about use feds exclusively in those. Ive even used ccis in those same glocks with no problems even after the spring kits were installed. Ive also used ww small pistol primers in my 9mm and 40 glocks with no problems and they too have action jobs. Maybe like was said I just got a batch that should have been culled due to out of spec primer cups. Right now there probably selling primers as fast as they make them and figure even if there is a problem with them someone will happily live with it. Not a real big deal as I do have guns to shoot them up in but if I need primers for my 10mm glocks again id have to be pretty desperate to buy ww primers again.

[pcarpenter]

I've had problems with Win primers as you have described. I read some of the first posts in the thread and you've already been told all the usual warnings about cases with crimps left in them, etc. Plenty of commercial stuff seems to have crimped primers nowdays too.

That said, I went from using Federals for everything I shoot in a pistol or revolver to trying to use up some Win LP primers I had on hand....again because they were available. Very hard to seat...and some boxes in a brick seemed worse than others. In this case I was using a Hornady LNL AP press with 45ACP brass that I have been (yes really) shooting since the 80's. It's mostly WCC millitary stuff with the crimps long ago removed. My loads are light and I don't even know how many loadings this stuff has had. The only change was a switch from Federal to Win primers. The Win primers do look at least a little bit "cruder". Maybe that's why we could get them when everything else had dried up It's enough of a problem that I probably won't buy more for this use.
Paul

[oldhenry]

Paul,
I'm curious to know if the lot# on your batch happens to be GLK594G like mine. Up to me buying a sleeve of that lot# I had no problems.

Regards,
Henry

[pcarpenter]

Paul,
I'm curious to know if the lot# on your batch happens to be GLK594G like mine. Up to me buying a sleeve of that lot# I had no problems.

Regards,
Henry

Henry-- I apologize for the late reply. Lot No. is GCL405G and on the brick package tab is what might be a date of 12/12.

I think one potential issue is that these are clearly brass cupped primers. If they are even a little oversize, they are going to drag going in. The Federal primers I was using were nickel plated. Brass on brass tends to gall and stick. You can even take two pieces of brass and "wring" them together and get a bit of a weld. So, if the cups are even a bit oversize or there's say a little more burr left on the edge of the cup, that could easily explain more drag going in. I measured for dimensional differences between the two that would explain it and there was actually a little more diameter and cup thickness difference with the Federal primers than the Win primers, so I tend to revert back to the fact that the Federal primers are nickel plated and just feel slicker in the hand...much less in the brass on brass fitment that happens when seating them. I've been handloading for about 35 years and brought the subject up with a friend who's in his 70's and has been a precision loader for even more years. He's noticed the issue varying even from one box to another within a brick. That too takes me back to the issue of having plated primers which, for all intents and purposes, a guy could think of as "lubricated" vs. those that are not. That doesn't account for differences within a brand, box to box, but it may explain why those that are plated are just plain slicker than those that are not. Maybe that's no big deal until you get a close fit.

Paul

[oldhenry]

Paul.
Thanks for your insight. Your measurements of the Federal primers coincides with mine & Tazman's measurements with the CCI's are similar.

It's so peculiar that this problem hasn't popped-up before now. I've been loading since '60 (I'm 78) & casting since '61. I've used quite a few Winchester primers (admittedly more WSP & WSR than WLP.......but quite a few WLP) & have never had this problem before..

I think you're right about the different surfaces being the only possible explanation.

The shipping carton from Olin came Tuesday. Olin is to sent Old Dominion to pick it up. We'll soon find out what they say.

Regards,
Henry

[pcarpenter]

Looking forward to seeing what they say. I know I may sound stuck on the plating thing, but I still have a partial brick of Win LR primers from say the 90's and they are plated. Don't know if that corresponds with your previous vs. current experience with Win primers or not. I guess I never gave the time of day to worrying about the presence of plating, in the past, but if I go back far enough, I was not loading on a progressive press. Also, nearly everything I used was plated in the past with the exception of Remington small-rifle BR primers. I just figured that these newer Win primers were not plated as a time saving thing from when they could not make anything fast enough to meet market demand.
Paul

[snowwolfe]

Over the years I have learned to do one thing to every case before it is reloaded. And that is to run a primer pocket cutter\uniformer into each primer pocket. You would be shocked at the difference between cases from the same lot number. Some require a lot of cutting and some you put the cutting tool in and it will not even contact any brass.

[Walt]

Looking forward to seeing what they say. I know I may sound stuck on the plating thing, but I still have a partial brick of Win LR primers from say the 90's and they are plated. Don't know if that corresponds with your previous vs. current experience with Win primers or not. I guess I never gave the time of day to worrying about the presence of plating, in the past, but if I go back far enough, I was not loading on a progressive press. Also, nearly everything I used was plated in the past with the exception of Remington small-rifle BR primers. I just figured that these newer Win primers were not plated as a time saving thing from when they could not make anything fast enough to meet market demand.
Paul

I was very disappointed when Winchester did away with the primer plating. This occurred about the time of the so called "primer shortage" early in the Clinton administration. The timing was right for a time saving change to make sense however, as I understand it Winchester said they did away with the plating because of customer complaints of primer insensitivity. I'm still going to blame Clinton.

[oldhenry]

First of all: The following information is as accurate & factual as it can be presented by me.

My contact person @ Olin/Winchester is "Haley" and she has been extremely courteous.

About 10 days ago I received a check from Olin/Winchester for $61.00 for the 1,700 primers that I returned. This is a little shy of the $39.50/1000 that I paid, but I'm not complaining about the nickel & dimes.

I deliberated for a few days & finally phoned Haley & explained that I really preferred good primers rather than the $61.00 payment. I explained that I would need to travel 85-90 miles to buy replacement primers & how was I to know which batch would give me the same problems?

Olin's response:
1.They can't ship anything less than a "case" (that's what they call a 5000 primer sleeve).

2. I said I'd pay the difference between the 1,700 & a 5,000 "case" & this was not possible as they only ship to authorized distributors.

3. I asked about their determination of the problem & she says that she does not have that information.

4. There is no way to ID any replacement primers that may give the same problem.

My conclusion:

1. We'll never know from Olin/Winchester the cause of the problem.
2. In hindsight: I should have kept my 1,700 primers & made the best of a "not so good" situation.
3. If possible inspect future WLP purchases & buy only the new "shiney" ones (not always possible with 5,000 sleeve purchases which is how I buy them).
4. Every time I phoned Olin my call went to voice mail & the call back was at least 2-3 hours later or even the next day. This tells me that I'm not the only person having problems.

Henry

[Walt]

First of all: The following information is as accurate & factual as it can be presented by me.

My contact person @ Olin/Winchester is "Haley" and she has been extremely courteous.

About 10 days ago I received a check from Olin/Winchester for $61.00 for the 1,700 primers that I returned. This is a little shy of the $39.50/1000 that I paid, but I'm not complaining about the nickel & dimes.

I deliberated for a few days & finally phoned Haley & explained that I really preferred good primers rather than the $61.00 payment. I explained that I would need to travel 85-90 miles to buy replacement primers & how was I to know which batch would give me the same problems?

Olin's response:

1.They can't ship anything less than a "case" (that's what they call a 5000 primer sleeve).

2. I said I'd pay the difference between the 1,700 & a 5,000 "case" & this was not possible as they only ship to authorized distributors.

3. I asked about their determination of the problem & she says that she does not have that information.

4. There is no way to ID any replacement primers that may give the same problem.

My conclusion:

1. We'll never know from Olin/Winchester the cause of the problem.
2. In hindsight: I should have kept my 1,700 primers & made the best of a "not so good" situation.
3. If possible inspect future WLP purchases & buy only the new "shiney" ones (not always possible with 5,000 sleeve purchases which is how I buy them).
4. Every time I phoned Olin my call went to voice mail & the call back was at least 2-3 hours later or even the next day. This tells me that I'm not the only person having problems.

Henry

Thanks Henry,

I appreciate all the work you went through. I guess we will hope that the shoddy WLPs are history. All the Winchester primers I recently purchased look better (brighter,shinier) and so far I've had no problem with them in use.

Good luck, Walt

[oldhenry]

Thanks Henry,

I appreciate all the work you went through. I guess we will hope that the shoddy WLPs are history. All the Winchester primers I recently purchased look better (brighter,shinier) and so far I've had no problem with them in use.



Good luck, Walt

Walt,
I appreciate your support.
I was beginning to feel all alone until you spoke up.
Henry

[Walt]

Walt,
I appreciate your support.
I was beginning to feel all alone until you spoke up.
Henry

Still here Henry! Is that a 750 Commando? Walt

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Walt,
I appreciate your support.
I was beginning to feel all alone until you spoke up.
Henry

Henry, sorry I have not posted on this topic recently. I did post 11, 51, & 63, but did not think I had much more of anything useful to add. I too have several thousand of those Winchester LRP that do not fit into my .45-70 RP primer pockets. I did use close to 400 for .308, but I did prep all those primer pockets with a primer pocket reamer from Hornady, then chambered the pocket with a RCBS deburring tool. I believe those primers are slightly oversize and/or very hard material. Someday I'll try to measure mine too, and hopefully be able to find this post. I need to load more .45-70 before deer season. I appreciate you staying with the thread to provide many details including your interaction with Winchester. Still on the primer subject, in the mid 1980's I did wind up with a box of 100 Federal LRP that were VERY sensitive, and would pop about one-half the time when try to seat the primer without undue force. Federal did a recall but I had used all mine up by the time I found out.

[oldhenry]

Still here Henry! Is that a 750 Commando? Walt

Actually it's a '79 Yamaha SR500 single. I completely rebuilt it to look like one of the British 500 singles that were popular in the '50s. I like thumpers (my 1st bike was a '51 Matchless 500 single).

It is very close to a Brit single in appearance (but it does not leak oil & the lights work).

Henry

[Walt]

Actually it's a '79 Yamaha SR500 single. I completely rebuilt it to look like one of the British 500 singles that were popular in the '50s. I like thumpers (my 1st bike was a '51 Matchless 500 single).

It is very close to a Brit single in appearance (but it does not leak oil & the lights work).

Henry

Wow I missed that by a mile. The lettering on the tank in that tiny picture looked like the Norton. My brother had a BSA 441 Victor, definitely a thumper.

[oldhenry]

Wow I missed that by a mile. The lettering on the tank in that tiny picture looked like the Norton. My brother had a BSA 441 Victor, definitely a thumper.

Walt, the 441 was definitely a "thumper". Bikes are a lot like guns in that when we were young we didn't have the funds to get what we thought we wanted & settled for something else. Now that we're older and can afford whatever, we really want to reconnect back to our younger days. That's how I became an "accidental thumper lover" (back then I wanted a Triumph twin but could only afford that used "Matchbox").

I admit that the tiny avatar photo is misleading.I hope the management doesn't mind me attaching few photos. The 1st one is of the tank after the paint, stripes & clear coat over the stripes. That script is "Velocette" type (another of my favorite "Brit" big singles).

The next 3 are different views of the bike just after I finished it (a 1 year effort).

The last is right before it's maiden voyage to the Barber Vintage Weekend in 2015.....all loaded & ready to go. I went a day early & my two sons joined me the next day. We'll do it again this Friday (we'll all ride together).

Regards,
Henry

[Walt]

At a distance that gold lettering on the black tank shouts Norton I don't know how to post any pictures but Google Norton 750 Commando and you'll see what I mean. The little Yamaha is a good looking bike!

[oldhenry]

At a distance that gold lettering on the black tank shouts Norton I don't know how to post any pictures but Google Norton 750 Commando and you'll see what I mean. The little Yamaha is a good looking bike!

I'm familiar with the Norton 750 Commando......they're classic Brit bikes. My Yamaha is a mixture of Brit 500 single characteristics: The Velocette script on the tank (+ Velocettes colors on 99% of their bikes were black with gold stripes, the exhaust header is strictly BSA Gold Star, the seat is a mixture of Velocette & some models of Triumph & the aluminum fenders (and brackets) resemble the Matchless G80CS.

The singles are light, slim, torquey & handle great in the "twistys" (plus that thumper sound grows on ya).

Regards,
Henry