Winchester LP primer problem

[oldhenry]

I decided to test 100 with SL cases & 100 with mixed HS (had to do some more shooting).....mixed was about all I had. The mixed HS were 50 Midway, 20 or so Win/WW, R-P, and a few FC, SL & even a couple of CBC.

CASE PREP: resize on SS press, PP cleaned with Herter tool, liquid tumble in 6 to 1 water/lemon juice+ dawn, dried & 30 min. tumble in CC media. Flash holes inspected & cleared if needed (I know the resize operation on the Dillon would clear the flash hole, but I'm OCD).

PRIMER MEASUREMENT: With caliper for SL loads only

.210.........53
.2095.......25
.20975.....01
.2096.......01
.2092.......01
.209.........18
.2091.......01

PRIMER MEASUREMENTS: With Micrometer for SL loads only.

.209.5.......01
.210..........06
.2101........03
.2102........25
.21025......04
.2103........19
.2104........07
.2105........10
.21015......02
.2106........09
.2107........02
.2108........01
.2109........01
.211..........02
Varied.......08 (out of round)

I think these are remarkably close. The "Varied" group was discovered when I measured the 58th (or 59th). When I closed the "mic" around the primer, it rotated. A closer look under magnification clearly showed it to have a slightly triangular shape.........see attached photo (maybe not clear enough) & diagram.

I marked the .211 & the "Varied" as well as some of the ones close to .211 with a MM.

THE LOADING:

The 100 SL loadings went amazingly smooth. Occasionally one would be harder to seat than most(but would seat) & I'd remove it from the Dillon & found no MM mark. Two were unable to be seated completely on the Dillon, but the seating was completed on the RCBS with no problem: one of these did have MM markings.

The 50 Midway cases were the smoothest to prime with absolutely no difficulty.

The 50 mixed HS went very well. Only 1 Win. had to be re-primed & the 2nd. priming was normal (why did the 1st. attempt fail?).

CONCLUSION: Minor variations in primers had little effect on seating in this trial.

I'll do the 300 round .44 spec. test tomorrow (time permitting). We'll find out how the next 100 WLPs perform compared to CCI 300 & Fed 150.

Henry

[Walt]

I decided to test 100 with SL cases & 100 with mixed HS (had to do some more shooting).....mixed was about all I had. The mixed HS were 50 Midway, 20 or so Win/WW, R-P, and a few FC, SL & even a couple of CBC.

CASE PREP: resize on SS press, PP cleaned with Herter tool, liquid tumble in 6 to 1 water/lemon juice+ dawn, dried & 30 min. tumble in CC media. Flash holes inspected & cleared if needed (I know the resize operation on the Dillon would clear the flash hole, but I'm OCD).

PRIMER MEASUREMENT: With caliper for SL loads only

.210.........53
.2095.......25
.20975.....01
.2096.......01
.2092.......01
.209.........18
.2091.......01

PRIMER MEASUREMENTS: With Micrometer for SL loads only.

.209.5.......01
.210..........06
.2101........03
.2102........25
.21025......04
.2103........19
.2104........07
.2105........10
.21015......02
.2106........09
.2107........02
.2108........01
.2109........01
.211..........02
Varied.......08 (out of round)

I think these are remarkably close. The "Varied" group was discovered when I measured the 58th (or 59th). When I closed the "mic" around the primer, it rotated. A closer look under magnification clearly showed it to have a slightly triangular shape.........see attached photo (maybe not clear enough) & diagram.

I marked the .211 & the "Varied" as well as some of the ones close to .211 with a MM.

THE LOADING:

The 100 SL loadings went amazingly smooth. Occasionally one would be harder to seat than most(but would seat) & I'd remove it from the Dillon & found no MM mark. Two were unable to be seated completely on the Dillon, but the seating was completed on the RCBS with no problem: one of these did have MM markings.

The 50 Midway cases were the smoothest to prime with absolutely no difficulty.

The 50 mixed HS went very well. Only 1 Win. had to be re-primed & the 2nd. priming was normal (why did the 1st. attempt fail?).

CONCLUSION: Minor variations in primers had little effect on seating in this trial.

I'll do the 300 round .44 spec. test tomorrow (time permitting). We'll find out how the next 100 WLPs perform compared to CCI 300 & Fed 150.

Henry

This is interesting Henry. None of your measurements seem to show over maximum SAAMI spec numbers. Do these primers have a mottled or darker color than other unfinished primers you've used?

[tazman]

This is interesting Henry. None of your measurements seem to show over maximum SAAMI spec numbers. Do these primers have a mottled or darker color than other unfinished primers you've used?

I am currently using a brick of Winchester primers that fit that description. I haven't had any issues with them yet, but I could use more info if there is a problem with those.

[oldhenry]

This is interesting Henry. None of your measurements seem to show over maximum SAAMI spec numbers. Do these primers have a mottled or darker color than other unfinished primers you've used?

Walt,
The entire sleeve (so far) does not have any shine at all & have a dark bronze or oxidized appearance........I guess "mottled" would be a good description. I think you're on to something.

With this sleeve, I thought that this was the new look for WLPs.

Here are some images & they look brighter than they actually are. Note on the center image (brass not nickel plated) there are a few that are brighter between the dull ones.........this more accurately depicts the coloring I'm trying to describe.

BTW: the ease of priming the Midway brass was predictable because I de-primed everything using an old die that de-primed & belled separately from sizing (adjusted so that no belling took place). This gives excellent feedback & the Midways were noticeably easier to de-prime.

[oldhenry]

I am currently using a brick of Winchester primers that fit that description. I haven't had any issues with them yet, but I could use more info if there is a problem with those.

Tazman,
I apologize. I didn't see your question before responding to Walt.

Walt (and you) may be on to something.

My experiment didn't turn out the way I expected. I was surprised by the unsymmetrical measurements of some & thought that might be the problem (especially on the ones close to .211 on the wide side), but that theory did not float.

If I took the current experiment & nothing else, I'd say the brass was the culprit. However: I've loaded all of this brass before using the identical preparation & never ever had the problem until this sleeve of WLPs. I think within a brick of primers it is possible for there to be differences & there are more differences in this lot#.

Henry

[sharpshooter3040]

I have a charter arms bulldog that doesn't like them but other than that that about all I use


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[Walt]

Tazman,
I apologize. I didn't see your question before responding to Walt.

Walt (and you) may be on to something.

My experiment didn't turn out the way I expected. I was surprised by the unsymmetrical measurements of some & thought that might be the problem (especially on the ones close to .211 on the wide side), but that theory did not float.

If I took the current experiment & nothing else, I'd say the brass was the culprit. However: I've loaded all of this brass before using the identical preparation & never ever had the problem until this sleeve of WLPs. I think within a brick of primers it is possible for there to be differences & there are more differences in this lot#.

Henry

I don't trust my memory much anymore but when Winchester did away with the finish on their primers the raw brass was bright, 1994? As I recollect it pretty much stayed that way until I split the 15,000 count WLP order with Nikki, my daughter. Those primers looked tarnished, dull, mottled......I've also used a couple cases of WSPs in the recent past which were dark. I wonder if some of seating trouble isn't caused by a sort of galling to go along with out of spec sizing? The WSPs have never been a problem for me and I imagine their smaller size just doesn't create the resistance of the large primers. The WLPs I recently picked up from the estate I spoke of earlier looked bright and they seated smoothly like we expect they should. I have 30,000 Winchester primers arriving on the 30th. I'm kind of anxious about their ease, or lack there of, of seating.

[Walt]

I am currently using a brick of Winchester primers that fit that description. I haven't had any issues with them yet, but I could use more info if there is a problem with those.

Tazman see post #47.

[Texas by God]

I had some of the mottled color ones as well. They all worked so I just shrugged it off to qc failure for appearance.

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[tazman]

I have gone through 300 of the brick I have that is dark in color. The sides look almost black somewhat as if they were moldy except the color doesn't wipe off.
I prime on my Lee Classic Cast press and have had no issues so far except for S&B brass(45ACP).
They have all gone bang so far.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I had a similar problem when I tried to load some RP .45-70 brass with a WW large rifle primer. They were not sitting flush or just below flush. I did not like having a primer higher than the base of the case. I tried another brand of primers. Same result. I tried large pistol primers. Same result. I eventually swaged the primer pocket for that brass with a RCBS primer pocket swage tool in my 1974 vintage RCBS Rockchucker Jr. I got it done, but have since obtained a RCBS Rockchucker Supreme, which has considerably more leverage for the task. After swaging the primer pockets, everything went fine.

[oldhenry]

Charlie,
In the past, I've had problems such as you describe & have always been able to figure it out. On my rifle reloading I used my Sinclair primer pocket uniformer (in a portable drill)to clean the pocket which also helped maintain the pocket depth. When I was shooting XTC my most common brass problem was loose primer pockets (too many firings). Most of them were LC & I really hated tossing them in the scrap pile with perfect "looking" primer pockets, uniformed flash holes & the trim/chamfering job my Gracy had produced.

As for the WLP experiment:

I only had time to load 100 of the .44 spec. SL cases with WLPs. There was no outstanding difficulty......only 1 that had a high primer & the 2nd. attempt @ seating on the Dillon did the job.

However: overall, the priming process required above average force. The force required & the drag between the primer & the primer pocket made it difficult (sometimes impossible) to feel the primer seat. This resulted in some primers being below the case head more than I prefer..........more than likely they'll be OK.

I hope to have time to load 100 each of the Fed. #150 & CCI 300 tonight (I need to spend my daylight time on my motorcycle restoration project............so much to do & so little time).

Henry

[tazman]

The next time I run the primer tray out, I will put some CCI in there and see if there is any significant difference. I have been loading Winchesters for so long, I don't know if they are harder to seat than another brand. I guess it's time to check it out.

[tazman]

I ran my primer test today and got some pretty definitive results. I just don't understand why.
I started by measuring Some of my Winchester WLP primers and some CCI large pistol primers with my micrometer.
The Winchester primers measured .210 and a bit(less than .0005).
The CCI primers measured .211 almost exactly.
All the measurements were very consistent.
I loaded some 45ACP rounds to see what the difference in seating effort was.
Even though they measure slightly larger, the CCI primers were MUCH easier to seat. They even seated easily in S&B brass which always gives me trouble with Winchester primers.
There is definitely something going on here.
As for the discoloration, here are some pictures.

These are from the same tray in the same box. The full tray pic gives you some idea how many there are per tray.
I repeat that I have no idea why this is happening but I can confirm oldhenry's results as far as the Winchester primers being more difficult to seat.
If I were not using a press to seat these primers, I suspect I would be having lots of difficulty.

[Texas by God]

I miss the days when only Remington primers were gold color. Every other brand was silver colored.

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[oldhenry]

I ran my primer test today and got some pretty definitive results. I just don't understand why.
I started by measuring Some of my Winchester WLP primers and some CCI large pistol primers with my micrometer.
The Winchester primers measured .210 and a bit(less than .0005).
The CCI primers measured .211 almost exactly.
All the measurements were very consistent.
I loaded some 45ACP rounds to see what the difference in seating effort was.
Even though they measure slightly larger, the CCI primers were MUCH easier to seat. They even seated easily in S&B brass which always gives me trouble with Winchester primers.
There is definitely something going on here.
As for the discoloration, here are some pictures.

These are from the same tray in the same box. The full tray pic gives you some idea how many there are per tray.
I repeat that I have no idea why this is happening but I can confirm oldhenry's results as far as the Winchester primers being more difficult to seat.
If I were not using a press to seat these primers, I suspect I would be having lots of difficulty.

Tazman,
Your images show the contrast much better than mine and your process is excellent. To me it looks like the new finish process on the WLPs is not as smooth (slick) as the CCIs in your case & the Fed. #150s in my case. This possibility escaped me & thankfully you & Walt picked it up.

I primed 100 more SL .44 spec. empties. This time with Fed.#150s........cases were prepped in the same batch as the ones primed with WLPs.

One word describes the seating of the Federal #150s....................SMOOTH!. I could feel each one seat & as a result most were even with the case head (just like I wanted).

I was unable to perform the same experiment on CCI 300s simply because I do not have any. I have a few #350s & plenty of 500s, but not a single 300. Tazman's experiment took care of my lack of the 300s.

I also primed 50 R-P empties with WLPs & they were very similar to the SLs (requiring much force to seat).

Henry

[oldhenry]

I emailed the Winchester division of Olin this morning about the problem & will let everyone know of any response I get.
Henry

[Walt]

I emailed the Winchester division of Olin this morning about the problem & will let everyone know of any response I get.
Henry

Thanks Henry. I'm anxious to hear their response. They have been dealing with some bad WLR primers recently also. Walt

[tazman]

They have been dealing with some bad WLR primers recently also. Walt

I hadn't heard about those. What is the issue?

[Walt]

I hadn't heard about those. What is the issue?

Primers perforating around the edge of the primer pocket. I may be able to send you a link or two by email. I don't know how to post pictures or links here. PM me if you like.