Help with Deer loads in Rossi 92 trapper 357

[northmn]

Lloyd, I hear you. Some of these "experts" puzzle me as personal experience does not agree with their views. I so not have your experience on deer but have hunted them for about 50 years and have seen kills made by others when I party hunted and by my family. I have shot deer with muzzle loaders, long bows and recurves, muzzle loaders, handguns, BP cartridge and modern rifle. As I process my own deer I do not like some of the larger calibers, but stay pretty much within the parameters of what some call "deer rifles". The 30-30, 35 Remington, 243 (use Nosler partitions) and so forth. The 357 is about as small as I would want to go. Carried it to an appropriate deer stand, decided to go to another one and felt kind of silly sitting at that one when I had better rifles for the job. The 270 I had would have been good had my shots been more consistently longer. Should have loaded it down a bit as it was a bit nasty up close if a shoulder was hit.
The 357 is a handy little carbine when I put up wood during deer season and carry something on my tractor. So is a 30-30. As stated, I looked up reviews from people who shot deer with the 357 and used their recommendations and ratings. Some of these "experts" talk about performance in ballistic gelatin or that sort of thing. Never felt the desire to hunt gobs of gelatin.

DP

[bigted]

takes a proper mind set to kill stuff. ive literally lived off deer meat with my 22 LR as a young man and hadnt heard yet that even the 30-30 Winchester was marginal on the little black tailed western Oregon deer. having said this i always had great shots and they were never more then 50 to 60 feet away from my muzzle. dont make it rite but i never trailed one nor had to use a second shot either.

jump ahead some years after shooting a couple Roosevelt Elk with my small 270 Winchester i began to understand what all the gun scribes were talking about with the "enough power" stuff if a "wrong" shot was contemplated. i passed up a lot of shooting as i always wanted my animals to not wonder off after i pasted them with whatever weapon i had hold of. also learned the art of hunting from an old family history that began in Kansas and gradually migrated to the great northwest side of Oregon with a couple wagon trips moving first to Idaho and then western Idaho then in an old Ford truck [with dual wheels on the back] to western Oregon logging camps ... these moves were my grandparents on my fathers side. outdoor activity was a taken for granted thing and we learned lessons from the stories handed down.

guess i began to side trip there for a minute.

im no "EXPERT" either when it comes to bagging wild meat ... however i have killed a few and learned that all larger calibers have done for me is make me desire to out shoot my effectiveness. i believe hunting with a 357 mag ... when loaded correctly ... is all-rite and plenty powerful for a very fast and humane kill on anything that walks around here. now having said this and before its taken the wrong way ... i also believe that proper hunting ethics should be employed as well.

just as hunting with a bow or muzzleloader or handgun ... range MUST be established with tons and tons of practice and NEVER be ignored ... even tho the temptation is great! i have killed moose up north with a 338 Win Mag and felt over gunned ... also seen a feller shoot a huge ol bull with a 416 rem mag and the ol feller simply turned away and meandered off ... dead on his feet ... but non the worse as for seeing it till he stumbled and fell down , quivered a couple times and gave up the ghost {in a pond of course}.

just sayin that suggestions about proper weapons to hunt with should always be tempered with sportsmanlike range and marksmanship as well as woods savvy and knowing your prey.

jumpin off my soap box now ... WHEWWW

[northmn]

I have always held that conditions determine our best hunting choices. Shot deer this year at a little over 100 yards. Were it 100 feet the 357 carbine would not be bad. However, I prefer a scoped rifle anymore. With good scope on an adequate rifle you do not need the power as you can place shots like Bigted talks about. With iron sights you can do so but need to be closer.
Funny about the power issue. I requested what some experienced hunters considered a minimum deer rifle. Set standards like normal shot placement and maybe 75 yard shots or better on occasion. Do not confuse minimum with marginal. Minimum is one that still gives adequate penetration and tissue damage. Set a broadside lung shot as a standard. 357 was considered one minimum as was the 223. Some went as high as the 30-30 and the 243. We could debate these issues ad infintium but I have stands where shots are going to be close and others where they are a bit farther. Biggest issue I find on power is that of tracking. I have seen some long runners hit properly that ran farther than I could believe. Nice to have a good blood trail.

DEP

[rainierrifleco]

How does one manage to kill 30-100 deer per year.....

[Lonegun1894]

For what it's worth, I use 14.5grs of 2400 to push a Lyman 358156 out of my 20" Rossi 92, and used a Lee 158gr SWCGC before that. Both always worked fine for deer and hogs, but I try to get as close as I can and pass up a lot more shots than I take.

[rfd]

i'm with lloyd and don't think it's wise to hunt certain game with marginal cartridge ballistics.

[kmrra]

If I have missed something here then excuse me , But Lloyd Smale you might want to explain alittle more as to how you can kill 30 to 100 deer a year ....Im not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but where I live I think that is a little on the illegal side, LOL im not calling you out or anything , I just think it needs a little explaining for us dimwitts out here. Again I apologize if I have missed something.

[jmort]

"...kill 30-100 deer per year....."

If you type faster than you think, you get nonsense. Perhaps the state pays experts like that to thin the herd. 1,400 foot pounds with a 180 grain 35 caliber WFN is enough gun. Like I said you have experts who disagree with members who post in this thread. James C. Gates owner of Dixie Slugs is one:

The .357 Magnum and Hard Cast Bullets
"The Hunter/Shooter that says a properly loaded .357 Magnum is not a viable hunting
cartridge for medium game is either uninformed or has never used one...JCG"

Paco Kelly
"I have no idea how many deer I have taken with 357s, but we lived in the wilderness of the southeast for over five years. I harvested from 20 to 25 deer a year and kept the Kelly family and many neighbors in game meat.. including hogs and a few black bear. Never had I had a 158 grain thru a 190 grain jacketed bullet by any manufacturer come apart loaded to the gills, give shallow surface wounds, or not penetrate deep enough! Now if they ever did fail it was because of my shooting not the bullet. The only truth I can see in this is the shedding of some of the jackets of the early 158 grain JHPs. But it is a half truth, because the lead core always went on deeply, and expanded well to put the game animals down."

Now I realize our member shots "30 to 100 per year," but I will take expert experience and opinions over members who has posted in this thread and say that deer are immune to the .357.

Paco Kelly
I think a word here about the turn of the 19/20th centuries. And a comparison of power of the popular loadings for three of the great deer harvesting calibers of those times... the 30-30, 32-40, and the 38-55. I have two hunting loads for the 357 in my rifles. From my Winchester 94/24 inch 17.5 grains of IMR 4227 gives 200/210 grain cast bullets 1755 fps and just under 1400 ft.lbs of muzzle energy... and the same load under the 180 jacketed PSP gives 1757 fps and 1230 plus ft.lbs of muzzle energy. The original velocity with a 165 grain bullet in the 30-30 from 1895 into the 1900s was around 1860 fps and 1260 ft.lbs of muzzle energy.. The Win 32-40 loading was also a 165 grain bullet at 1400 fps and under 720 ft.lbs of muzzle energy, while the great 38-55 with the Win loading of a 255 grain bullet at 1320 fps and gave just under 1000 ft.lbs of muzzle energy. As you can see the 357 loaded right even for the Marlins and the Winchesters (40,000 to 42,000 psi) can eclipse the early big three rifle loads."

[richhodg66]

Late to the party here, but I killed two deer with an old 1907 Winchester in October using cast (with not a particularly large meplat, though it was flat) and neither took a step after the shot. Neither died instantly, but they weren't going anywhere.

That bullet weighed slightly less than 180 grains if I recall, and I never chronographed it, but based on the data should have been pushing around 1700 FPS, perhaps a bit more. Not far beyond what you could get from the .357 in a rifle. Also, the .351 was hampered by bullet selection because of the undersized bullet needed which you wouldn't be fighting with the .357, bullet selection is much better.

Bot these deer were shot from above, neither more than 20 yards rom the tree I was in, probably closer. I'm not the best deer hunter in the world, but I tend to think like a bow hunter and hunt from an ambush position with the deer unalarmed and as close as I can get them regardless of what I'm using. I've hunted the last 20 years or so on the same tract of public land and know the movement patterns out there, so this isn't hard to do now.

I think that Rossi would be fine, just hunt well and know your limitations.

[Suo Gan]

The minimalist concept sounds great. Use just enough gun. Place your shot right. Do your part and it will kill a deer.

I have hunted in game rich areas. Sometimes for whatever reason the game isn't there. You might go days or longer. When the shot presents itself, why the hell would you want to limit yourself? I have seen deer that were properly shot and should have been dead run off over the hill. Lost the blood trail. Called in the hounds and found them two days later when the buzzards were circling.

To me, I try to keep things simple. I don't need a challenge. Life is hard enough. I have chased enough wounded critters and I don't want to anymore. i chalk these folks who want to use these kinds of things up to being green horns. You know why? Because that is how I thought when I was a green horn too. just use a 30-30 for crying out loud. The kick ain't that bad. But hey, if you like tracking deer....go for it. It's a free country. You'll come around one day I bet.

357 mag is marginal. It is going to let you down. Use something bigger. I heard tell of a man killed a grizzly with a pocket knife. I bet that sum beech wishes he had a 338 handy.

[dverna]

One size does not fit all.

A disciplined hunter who is also a good shot can use less gun than someone who gets buck fever and has trouble hitting a pie plate at 100 yards.

As stated by others, yes...the .357 will get the job done...if you do your part. Is it a "good" choice for the average Joe/Jane....no.

I took my first deer this year so I am no expert at killing deer. I contemplated using my lever action .357 as I was hunting out of a stand but less than a week before the season opened I loaded up some 165 gr Game Kings for a new .308. I wanted enough gun. It was an easy shot...130 yards and the deer dropped and never got up. That is what I want...a quick kill...I agree with Lloyd and Suo Gan on that.

The .357 would have worked on that shot....a slightly angled broadside. Not sure if it would have dropped instantly.

Lastly, there is the mental aspect. Using a "marginal" gun can affect your mind. Confidence is a great thing to have. Confidence that you have enough gun, confidence the gun and load are accurate, confidence in your ability to judge the range (even more important with low velocity rounds) and lastly, confidence in your ability make the shot under field conditions.

Don Verna

[RickinTN]

I noticed in the original post the question was asked "which Lee mold to use?" I haven't killed a deer with it but if I had to choose it would be the Lee 158 rf bullet. I would push it reasonably fast with some of the above powder suggestions and keep the range reasonable. I think then you could warm up the skillet and eat some good deer tenderloins.
Good Luck,
Rick

[Lonegun1894]

i chalk these folks who want to use these kinds of things up to being green horns. You know why? Because that is how I thought when I was a green horn too. just use a 30-30 for crying out loud. The kick ain't that bad. But hey, if you like tracking deer....go for it. It's a free country. You'll come around one day I bet.

357 mag is marginal. It is going to let you down. Use something bigger. I heard tell of a man killed a grizzly with a pocket knife. I bet that sum beech wishes he had a 338 handy.

First off, I completely agree that it's a free country, for now, but it will stay that way if some of us have a say in the matter. But I disagree that the .357 is marginal. It may be for your needs, but works for mine. Let me explain please. If you hunt out West where long shots are the norm, then I absolutely agree with you that the .357 is marginal, and quite possibly even next to useless, and I have other guns for that kind of use. BUT in my case, I hunt the thick stuff where probably 99% or my shots are inside 100 yards, and as my skills have been improving, 90% of my kills have been inside 50 yards, and about half inside of 20 yards, for the last few years now. Now for full disclosure, I also hunt hogs (with my biggest yet being just shy of 300 lbs) with a .22LR pistol by getting in close and waiting for the perfect shot, so to me, a .357 is plenty of gun. I have used a .30-30 plenty, and it is one of my favorites also, but it doesn't do anything inside of 100 yards that my .357 can't. And by the way, since you said to use something bigger than a .357, how exactly is the .311" boolit I use in my .30-30 "bigger" than my .358" I use in my .357? I also have .44 Mag, .45 Colt, and .45-70, if you really want me to step up the caliber, but on game of 350 lbs or smaller, and inside of 100 yards, the .357 just plain works. The 300 lb hog I mentioned earlier with a .22 LR was taken at 15 yards with a Ruger 22/45, and dropped with a shot to the forehead. The one before it was 225 lbs and took a .22 through the heart and both lungs (and exited!), from 30 yards away, and made it 10 feet before dropping. Results from a .357 are even better.

Now speaking strictly deer. I prefer the Lyman 358156 due to being able to use the cheaper and more common .38 Spl brass and getting the same exact powder capacity when crimped in the rear crimp groove as I get when loading the same boolit into .357 brass and crimping in the front groove. Same POI with my guns too, so I am a fan. Before that, I used a Lee 158gr SWCGC in .357 brass and got the same exact performance on game. Now y'all want to talk light loads? And I do NOT recommend this, but did it because the circumstances were about perfect and I needed the meat. A friend called me a few years ago and asked me to clean and butcher a deer he had shot but was having trouble processing due to having had surgery a few days prior, and living 15 minutes away, I headed his way. I was not planning on hunting that day, so did not bring hunting loads, but just carried my 4" Ruger Security 6 with my target load of a Lee 158gr RNFP pushed by 7.0gr Unique in a .357 case. Well, as I was butchering his deer, a spike buck we had been talking about taking out due to very tall but unbranched antlers came up and stood at 45 yards from me. Well, I ignored it for a couple minutes concentrating on taking care of his deer, when he told me it was still watching us and asked me to take it. I took the shot, and the little buck dropped. My boolit broke the right shoulder, went through both lungs (just clipping the very rear portion of the left lung), and then lodged against the pelvis on the left side. The buck wasn't very big and was only 150 lbs, but it gives you an idea of the kind of performance that a .35 caliber 158gr boolit can give you, even when not loaded to max loads. I want to say that load gives around 1100 fps in that 4" revolver, IIRC, and my rifle load is closer to 1800 fps, so even more capable.

So to finish off, regarding your "greenhorn" assertion, my hat is off to you, Sir, for realizing your personal limitations and working within those limits. However, in my view, there are several aspects to hunting. Such as using enough gun/bow/etc, knowing how far you are effective with your chosen weapon, being skilled enough to get close enough to take a shot with your chosen weapon, and being mature and disciplined enough to know which shots you should take, and which you shouldn't. But please don't assume that those of us who hunt in conditions and have the skills to get close enough to make good use of what you call "marginal calibers", are "greenhorns" and just don't know any better. As one man's signature line here says, and I'm sorry for not remembering the name, and probably not getting the quote exactly right, but... "Don't tell me something is impossible, while I'm doing it.. It's just plain annoying." We all have different hunting conditions, and different limitations, and all have to work within them.

I used to be stationed with a man who used to hunt elk with a .357 revolver, and got his elk every year. Well, after the second year of hearing the stories and seeing the photos, a couple of us still didn't believe him and thought he was using a rifle and then taking a photo with a revolver and playing one big joke on us. So when he invited me to go with him, I jumped at the chance. Now this was with the understanding that I could accompany him, but could not take an elk myself, which was fine by me. We took leave, and finally ended up at his family land watching a trail. First two days, we saw plenty of deer, and took one each, but the real goal was an elk afterall, Well, 4 days into the hunt, and we had a week of leave, an elk finally comes to his call, and he took it with his 6" GP100 at about 35-40 yards. The bullet, some kind of jacketed soft point factory load, went through both lungs and out the other side, and the elk went 30 yards before dropping. Does that make the .357 an elk gun, in his hands, yes! In mine, I think I would want bigger, but know it would work if needed. In yours, well, only you know.

[rond]

How do the guys shooting pointed sticks at deer manage to kill any? How about smokepoles?

[Lonegun1894]

How do the guys shooting pointed sticks at deer manage to kill any? How about smokepoles?

Ooooh, Ooooh, Pick me! Pick me! I know this one! Having done it with both of those, I vote PLACEMENT.

[Suo Gan]

It isn't because a whole train load of deer run off. I haven't had one run off after I've used a 30-06. I am an excellent shot. But...what you green horns ain't aknolwlefibg is the fact that Mother Nature and just pure old bad luck almost always plays a hand. Your deer will step forward just at the shot. A small unseen twig will cause a wounding shot. The glint of sunlight through moving tree branches causes you to shoot untrue.

It is absokutley stupidity to say that atchery hubters hunters don't lose any deer and to base your argument on marginal caliburs on that logic. Sorry fellas. Life is gonna teach ya. Don't listen to me. I am as hard headed as you. I was the same way.

This is all about sounding the part.

Do you know I once was in on the hunt for a huge mountain of a polar bear with my Inuit friend armed with a single shot 22 and a beyond rusted broken 22 mag?

Haha. You boys think you are trying to learn me.

I got the claw necklace. We did it. But believe me, we had to clean our shorts out afterwards. Just take my word. I did near everything the hard way. You can learn from me. Or not.

Merry Christmas.

[Suo Gan]

I've been chased and nearly eaten by several mean old bears. My uncle shot the jaw off one. It played dead and when he walked up it grabbed him by the arm and shook him with a little stub of a lower jaw. Had to mediflight him. Took surgeons many hours to put him back together. A police positive 38 special stuck in his ear did that bear in. It died.

I bet some of you folks will think I believe in killing bears with a 4" 38 special. Others will think i would only feel safe hunting bear with a howitzer.

Isnt there any middle ground? You use that 357 with hard cast boolits and you gonna prove me right.

I been there folks. I seen near everything that can happen. And when it does, I am a Coast Guardsmen and Boyscout at heart. I want to always be ready AND prepared.

You guys make me laugh. Thank you. I need that these days.

[Speedo66]

If I have missed something here then excuse me , But Lloyd Smale you might want to explain alittle more as to how you can kill 30 to 100 deer a year ....Im not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but where I live I think that is a little on the illegal side, LOL im not calling you out or anything , I just think it needs a little explaining for us dimwitts out here. Again I apologize if I have missed something.

I seem to recall he had a job involving wildlife management.

[Jeff Michel]

I have used the NOE 180 WFN over 12 grains of 2400 on four different deer out to 125 yards. Not once did the bullet remain in the deer nor did any of the deer travel more than ten yards. It averages 1470 fps FWIW.

[Lonegun1894]

It isn't because a whole train load of deer run off. I haven't had one run off after I've used a 30-06. I am an excellent shot. But...what you green horns ain't aknolwlefibg is the fact that Mother Nature and just pure old bad luck almost always plays a hand. Your deer will step forward just at the shot. A small unseen twig will cause a wounding shot. The glint of sunlight through moving tree branches causes you to shoot untrue.

It is absokutley stupidity to say that atchery hubters hunters don't lose any deer and to base your argument on marginal caliburs on that logic. Sorry fellas. Life is gonna teach ya. Don't listen to me. I am as hard headed as you. I was the same way.

This is all about sounding the part.

Do you know I once was in on the hunt for a huge mountain of a polar bear with my Inuit friend armed with a single shot 22 and a beyond rusted broken 22 mag?

Haha. You boys think you are trying to learn me.

I got the claw necklace. We did it. But believe me, we had to clean our shorts out afterwards. Just take my word. I did near everything the hard way. You can learn from me. Or not.

Merry Christmas.

The part this "green horn" has a problem with is the attitude you have about seeming to not be able to understand that we all hunt different game, in different areas, under different conditions, and using different methods. I am glad that you are happy with your .30-06, and I have one also, and yes, it works well. But let me explain something please regarding methods and conditions...

I used to hunt a place where it was hard to get inside of 300 yards of a deer due to the flat area we hunted, and the very sparse vegetation, so I understand the need to be able to reach out and make sure you have enough power left to do the job at a distance. I have shot many deer at 500-800 yards with my .308, and a few in the same place with my .30-06, and never lost a single one. But after a while, this became more like a grocery shopping trip, and I started looking for ways to force myself to get closer. I put away the scoped .308 and picked up the iron sighted .30-30, then the iron sighted .45 Colt revolver, then my .54 flint lock, then a long bow. I got out and moved back home, where the terrain is different and the vegetation gets thick in places, which made it easier to force myself to get closer, and I have been pushing my limits more and more to become a better hunter, not just a shooter. I can take anyone who is willing, and reasonably healthy, and teach them to hit a target the size of a pie plate out to 500 yards from a bench, and have done it with many people. So I am not impressed with that when you're using a scoped .30-06, .308, etc. I'm just not. I am much more impressed with when you tell me how close you can get to a wild animal, and then place a good shot. I have never lost an animal due to a miss, a marginal shot, or a branch I didn't see, as you seem to allude that you have had problems with. I wait for my shot, and if it means I wait too long and end up not shooting, so be it. If there is anything that makes me question a shot, regardless of it being a stick in the way, or a bad angle, a questionable range, or just a gut feeling that I shouldn't, I don't take the shot. It's as simple as that.

To me, the "green horn" is the guy in the woods who doesn't take his time to identify his target, or the range to the target, or obstructions between himself and his target, or whatever else can go wrong, and doesn't bother to do what it takes to make sure he is effective and efficient. This is the same kind of attitude that just rubs me the wrong way and the "hunter" is so inexperienced that he feels he needs way too much gun. An example is a friend of mine who went and got himself a .300 WM to hunt our little local deer where 200# is a fairly big one, because he may have to reach all the way out to 150 yards, and then after a couple years realized that the longest shot he has had to take was 75 yards, and he loses half the deer due to blood shot. He's using a .44 Mag rifle now, gets just as many deer, and doesn't lose any meat. He learned to hunt and pay attention to his surroundings, and matured enough to realize which shots he should and shouldn't take. He's no longer a "green horn" in my book, but a hunter.

Someone who can't understand that it's the hunter, and not the weapon, or as the old saying goes "it's not the arrow, but the Indian", and sees anything and everything less than his chosen pet caliber as inadequate, well, that is the "green horn". It may work for you, in your conditions, and with your methods, and I am glad it does, but please quit throwing insults around and accusing the rest of us of not knowing what we're doing. If we were doing something wrong or illegal, yes, please call us out, but we're not.

Merry Christmas, and hope everyone here made some meat.