Re: The Art of PP - other factor effecting accuracy

[windrider919]

I am pretty much only a SP shooter but enjoy a little BP now and then. It warms the blood sometimes to reestablish my roots in this age of fast change. I also have focused exclusively on one rifle / cartridge.

While reading a recent thread that wandered off topic I had wanted to add an item I discovered that was making DRASTIC effects on my accuracy.

In a match, the shooter does not worry much about cartridge durability. That is for the field shooter. Hence the debate on bullet seating depth. The match shooter does not worry about rounds in pockets or cartridge loops where a long seated bullet might be knocked askew or even out entirely. One of my fellow shooters rifle is most accurate when he pushes the bullet into the bore with a rod of precise length and then inserts a loaded case that is sealed from spilling by a wad.

But, the point I was going to make is to watch how you size the case. I found using standard .458 Win Mag dies that when I loaded a PP .458 (final dia.) bullet It seemed OK. No crimp, just enough taper die to straighten out the bell in the case mouth and not tear the patch. But I just was not getting any accuracy. Then, for an unrelated reason I had to pull the bullets out of some loaded rounds. And found that the OD of the PP bullet inside the case had been swaged down to .449 in the normal loading process! No bullet is going to perform well when its back half is less than bore diameter[including PP here in case you are confused, people.] And there was never going to be enough obturation to overcome that handicap.

In fact, I found that case neck tension as tight as I expected to hold jacketed bullets in the case ALWAYS crushes / re-sizes all but the hard lead bullets. So I stopped resizing my brass for cast and PP except for about 3/16 inch right at the case mouth.

By the way, i am not using 'thick' brass. I use factory brass, buying 100 and using them until I have 'consumed' around ten then throwing away those for a new batch, annealing occasionally as necessary.

So, in conclusion, There are several well kown reasons to seat well out, depending on chamber size. i just wanted to point out that allmost all the long seaters also do not use tight case neck or crimp to hold the bulet. It is just another way to prevent changes in dimension to the bullet that would affect accuracy. Now I know that lots of BP shooters don't size either, their bullets are just pushed into the case with just a little more than thumb pressure, so it really is not a secret, just not very well known.

So for the reloader who seats his till they look 'traditional length', thats OK as long as you are not inadvertantly sizing the bullet inside the case as you load it and then wondering where your accuracy went.

[Bigjohn]

Thanks for the information Windrider, I had experience something simular many years back with a commercial cast soft 230grain RN for the .45ACP.

I don't think many caster/reloaders realise that this is possible with most brands of reloading dies as the are made to resize all thicknesses of brass case walls.

I have seen this topic discussed in a publication; possibly one of Paul Matthew's books.

On the other matter; I agree it was getting too personal and destroying the passage of information. (My words).

John.

[45 2.1]

Lee makes a carbide factory crimp die for the 45 Colt, the one which has a carbide ring in the die base to size the loaded cartridge to factory dimensions. The I.D. varies a little, but these can be used to neck size a fireformed case. They usually need a 0.461" or more boolit to hold sufficiently in a 4570 case. With a thicker walled case, this might solve some of your boolit reduction problems.

[powderburnerr]

When I load my factory cases I do not resize at all . I take the fire formed case, load it as usual and set the bullet , which is 2 tenths in the case , then simply taper crimp the round enough so it will stay in the case , I can pull the bullet with finger pressure and reseat it but it is as solid as a deep seated bullet , I carry them in a canvas ctg belt and have no problem with inserting them in the loops or removing them .
the thicker brass I refered to in the previous post is used to be able to skip the taper crimp step .
It will be close to chamber dia outside and a snug push fit for the 448 bullet I shoot in it. . this will prevent the bullet from bumping up until it getsall ythe way into the rifling as well .........Dean

[leftiye]

Good technique, I like it! Solves the oversize chamber problem, and centers the boolit. How do you control sizing to not size the boolit, or maybe cut the paper?

[powderburnerr]

the bullet is shot as cast and wrapped with 2 wraps of paper and has a finished diamater of 446-448 .depending on the application , I use pure lead or 50-1 and 1F powder and the finished size is determined by the paper thickness. the bullet obdurates in the bore and seals and the paper is cut by the lands and comes off at the muzzle as confetti if it is the depth of the lands or smaller . one bullet I use cuts only the outer wrap and there is a 1/2 patch after firing , . they are dry wrapped and loaded as wrapped . I have shot 60 round matches in 100 degree heat with these loads and they perform very consistantly past 1000 yards with only 3 or 4 breaths down either end ...............Dean

I also have a vld neck reamer so as not to have to work the brass , and occasionally there is a need to resize right at the web a hair , for this I use a cut off sizing die and do not touch the neck.

[montana_charlie]

occasionally there is a need to resize right at the web a hair , for this I use a cut off sizing die and do not touch the neck.

For the guy who doesn't want to cut down a reloading die, I can tell you how to build this tool from scratch for about twelve bucks...and no lathe required.
CM