Another orphan sporterized Krag followed me home

[kir_kenix]

So, I have a thing for sporterized Krags. I've gathered up a couple of them in the last few years, and they always become projects that may or may not ever get finished (a .25, .35, and .40 are "in the works"). I've had one at my gunsmith for a couple years that he still hasn't got around to stocking, so I'm going to try to do this one myself.



Story goes:
This morning my buddy called and said he found "most" of a '98 Krag carbine...$125 and it was mine. I went over, not expecting much. He had a fairly well done barreled action and trigger guard. It was obviously a rifle somebody had hacked up, not a carbine...but no biggy to me. Looks like a '03 front sight and a rear Williams ramp sight had been fitted. Bluing looked good, but the bolt was covered with light surface rust. Bolt wouldn't cock because it was full of what I assume was 30 year old WD-40. I took it home and started cleaning it up.

I had an extra stock somebody crudely bubba'd (left handed Winchester stock somebody hacked to hell) that the action fell into, more or less. 3 hours of diesel, valve lapping compound, and super fine steel wool got the bolt cleaned/freed up. The bore had a tremendous amount of junk in it as well, but it cleaned up fairly nicely. Headspace was good, so I figured I'd see if it would shoot.



I shot about 20 jacketed rounds (180 gr hornady, mild load of IMR-4350) and bore snaked the barrel. Bore was looking even better! I had some 311041's (sized .310 in front of some 2400) loaded up for another Krag so I gave them a run. Printed a 3", 5 shot group at 100 yards. Not bad for a $125 rifle and a poorly fit left handed stock...I'm a righty by the way.

So I decided I'm actually going to finish putting one of these Krags together. I ordered a grade AA American black walnut stock from Richards Microfit and another "whatever is the cheapest" so I can practice in-letting/butchering that one first. Supposed to be 96% inlet, but I know from experience that the amount of material needed to remove can vary drastically. Should be a fairly easy project and I'll try and remember to post updates as I go along. Only other thing to hunt down is the magazine disconnect lever, or steal one from another Krag I guess.

So hopefully in 8-10 weeks when my stocks show up, I'll be the owner of a respectable looking sporterized 1898 that actually shoots fairly well. If I don't destroy the economy stock, maybe I'll be able to finish one of these other pile of parts around here as well.

Stay tuned and keep your fingers crossed.

[kir_kenix]

Also, I'm looking for a couple sets of "no drill" peep sights if anybody has a set. The Rice that mounts to the extractor is the most desirable, but the Redfield 102-k or 70-kt (sometimes see it listed as 70-kh??) with the longer screw would be awesome too. I see the Redfields on e-bay from time to time, running from $50-100...frequently without the screw that is about impossible to find/source.

Williams makes an aluminum one, but requires drilling/tapping the action. Seeing how hard these old actions are, I'm hesitant to attempt it with my current equipment.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Jeff Cooper used to say that the Krag does what the average hunter needs in a rifle, just as well as anything you can buy today.

Richards will bear watching in my experience. I bought an exhibition grade walnut stock from them for my Mannlicher-Schoenaue, and it was pretty good walnut, very well shaped and inlet, but pretty good isn't exhibition grade.

[Char-Gar]

When you bed the Krag action in the new stock, pay close attention to the fit of the back of the magazine box to the wood. The Krag has no action lug and depends on this fit to keep the metal from going back and forth in the wood. A layer of glas bedding is helpful a this point as it gives a perfect fit and is harder than the wood.

The Krag action has no front action screw and really needs a barrel band or a new action screw put in the receive ring. If you are going to drill and tap the bottom of the front ring, you will need a carbide bit as these things are very very hard. Once you get the hole drilled an ordinary carbon tap works just fine.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Attachment 168939Attachment 168940

I own and worked on lots of Krags over the years, and I am very familiar with the "special longer screw" problem. Unless it comes with the sight you're pretty well sunk in finding one. This is what worked for me, and I wrote it down in my notebook. Hope it's legible.
DG

[Ballistics in Scotland]

When you bed the Krag action in the new stock, pay close attention to the fit of the back of the magazine box to the wood. The Krag has no action lug and depends on this fit to keep the metal from going back and forth in the wood. A layer of glas bedding is helpful a this point as it gives a perfect fit and is harder than the wood.

The Krag action has no front action screw and really needs a barrel band or a new action screw put in the receive ring. If you are going to drill and tap the bottom of the front ring, you will need a carbide bit as these things are very very hard. Once you get the hole drilled an ordinary carbon tap works just fine.

You are exactly right about the Krag action and magazine as we find it. I don't think it is a weak stock, but it is a flexible one, without the rigidity of a box girder that one made for a central magazine has. I would rather put that forend screw into a barrel band which doesn't encircle the wood, though. It could be either fixed to the barrel or sliding, and I would prefer it to be closer to the action than those we often see on old rifles. In particular it would be a mistake to put it far enough forward to do double duty attaching a sling swivel.

[RPRNY]

Looks a near twin of mine. Without question my favorite rifle to shoot.

I had a Handi Rifle 30-30 bored out and rechambered to 35 Krag. It's good for 65,000 psi and I am slowly developing loads. 225 SGK at 2350 so far. Also shoots a 280 gr lead soup can over 4227 quite effectively. Took a 545 lbs hog with it in December.

[shooter93]

I have a Krag done in 35 Krag. The stock covers the magazine on the left side so there is no flex. and the Maker came up with a dovetail and stud arrangement for a front screw just ahead of the action. It shoots amazingly well. He also changed the safety to a side swing, changed the bolt handle etc. I don't want to hijack you're thread but if you're interested I'll put up a couple pics. I used to have the no drill sight with the screw but I'm not sure I still do. I had him make a quarter rib and banded front sight.

[kir_kenix]

Thanks everybody for the comments and suggestions! Can't wait to get this thing a-going.

Couple things I've noticed while cleaning this old girl up that need corrected as well. Whoever cut the crown on this rifle must have done it by hand and I'll have to clean it up. The screws in the rear sight must have thread-locker on them, as they won't budge. The extractor has a pretty good gouge missing out of it, even though it worked just fine. The spring in the bolt body will probably have to be replaced as it is very, very rusty and doesn't seem to have much tension (though I didn't have any light primer strikes). I thought I had a Krag trigger guard because it fit 'OK' on the loaner stock, but it is clearly from some other rifle. I have no idea how the stock will come inletted for the guard, so it might be undersized and need to be swapped out. The spring for the loading gate isn't correct and doesn't hold shut with much authority. Having said all that, for $125 and some elbow grease I really can't complain at this point.

Pretty sure my wife has laid claim to it already as her new hunting rifle. It's already shown to be more accurate and "her" Krag has a steel butt-plate and has a LOP that is slightly too long for her. Not the most comfortable for her to shoot from field positions.

Ballistics in Scotland:
I am well aware that Richards routinely "over grades" their wood...but they are way cheaper than anybody else out there. For $199 (without swivel studs or butt-pad), they are hard to beat. Sometimes they've come ready to sand and finish, and other times they come grossly oversized. I'm hoping mine comes in looking good and nicely inletted and ready to go...but I'm not going to hold my breath either. I sharpened some chisels and bought a couple different grades of sand paper already. Deciding on finish is going to be tough...straight BLO or Tru-Oil are the leading candidates right now.

Char-Gar:
I'm really considering a barrel band. Problem is right now that the front sight is silver-soldered on and I really don't trust myself to remove it and try and get it lined up again/attached, not to mention the bluing I'm sure to jack up. I'm considering removing the barrel and rear sight instead. I've also thought of drilling directly into the barrel on the bottom, or even dovetailing it for a sort of block that could be bedded, drilled/tapped and used that for my front action screw. Drilling into the VERY hard receiver gives me the heebie-jeebies...seen a few with bits broken off in them and I don't really have the equipment or fixturing to trust myself on the receiver.

Der Gebirgirgjager:
Thanks for the tip on the 10-24 tap. My Dad has told me to just heat a 10-24 screw so it lost its temper and force it in the hole. Said that if it was soft enough the receiver will just cut new threads in the screw. Your method seems much less risky then my old mans suggestion. I saw on another forum where somebody cut the head off the magazine cut-off screw and brazed a longer head on...probably beyond my ability to keep straight though.

Shooter 93:
Please, show some pics! Mine won't be finished for another couple months, so it will give me something to drool over until this one is complete. I've seen Norwegian target Krags with no cut out for the magazine cover. Seems like a good fix for the stock flexing, but beyond my ability to inlet for. Where it curves back in towards the top I would end up with an unsightly gap, I'm sure. If you come up with that sight (hopefully with screw!), I'd send you a check for it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It isn't so much the drilling of the receiver. You can get straight-fluted short tungsten carbide drills which will produce a very accurate burnished hole in just about anything ferrous. I have just used one to drill a hole in a supposedly high speed steel end mill, to drill a bore larger for relining, by pulling the tool instead of pushing. It is a cheap Chinese end mill, which might be a little more drillable than some people's HSS, but it isn't outright fakery, and they have worked well for me on other jobs.

The real problem is tapping that hard steel, for a broken off tap is even worse than a drill. In the Krag you might be all right tapping in a tight-fitting copper rod and heating the end of it, to anneal it very locally. It is just as likely that it won't, and you will break the tap. An alternative to a barrel band for the screw would be a soft soldered lug, about 3/8in. wide and closely shaped to match the barrel. With that area of contact soft soldering ought to be fine.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

kir kenix, I've also always believed that a sporterized Krag needs some additional purchase forward of the front trigger guard screw. I'm personally very much against drilling into the receiver ring, and do favor the ring around the barrel approach forward of the receiver ring. One just forward of the ring might indeed be the best way to go, but I also like the split ring that is installed maybe four inches back from the fore end tip and doubles as a sling swivel. This might or might not effect bench rest accuracy, but won't effect hunting level accuracy. I did a write up with photos once on how to make one from scratch, and you may find it with a search--I think it was in the "gunsmithing tricks" part of the forum. In any event, a split ring can pass by that soldered on front sight and make removal of the barrel unnecessary. As for the weak and worn parts, they're readily available in a constant stream on e-bay, just do a search for "Krag". Look at them for a while before you buy, because some are very reasonably priced and other identical parts are priced outrageously. They all come from the same source which is parted out rifles.

****************************

The info on how to make a split ring, probably open top ring would be a better description, is in the Gunsmithing Tips and Tricks sub forum, a thread entitled "Following along behind Bubba", currently on the 5th page of the forum and slowly slipping into oblivion. The part about the ring is on the 2nd page of the thread.

[shooter93]

Here is a couple pics of mine. The quarter rib will also take a Scout scope.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Beautiful rifle, shooter93.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

kir kenix, I've also always believed that a sporterized Krag needs some additional purchase forward of the front trigger guard screw. I'm personally very much against drilling into the receiver ring, and do favor the ring around the barrel approach forward of the receiver ring. One just forward of the ring might indeed be the best way to go, but I also like the split ring that is installed maybe four inches back from the fore end tip and doubles as a sling swivel. This might or might not effect bench rest accuracy, but won't effect hunting level accuracy. I did a write up with photos once on how to make one from scratch, and you may find it with a search--I think it was in the "gunsmithing tricks" part of the forum. In any event, a split ring can pass by that soldered on front sight and make removal of the barrel unnecessary. As for the weak and worn parts, they're readily available in a constant stream on e-bay, just do a search for "Krag". Look at them for a while before you buy, because some are very reasonably priced and other identical parts are priced outrageously. They all come from the same source which is parted out rifles.

****************************

The info on how to make a split ring, probably open top ring would be a better description, is in the Gunsmithing Tips and Tricks sub forum, a thread entitled "Following along behind Bubba", currently on the 5th page of the forum and slowly slipping into oblivion. The part about the ring is on the 2nd page of the thread.

Yes, that was a nice piece of work on that forum page, and it would get around the problem of getting a barrel band over a front sight you don't want to remove. The gap could be considerably narrower, and it could be considerably thinner above the stock line tapering to almost nothing, if you will soft solder it in place. Alternatively it could meet the sides of a barrel-mounted rear sight.

There is a way forward if you want to put a band on a 1in. diameter barrel, but that would hardly be likely in a sporting Krag. I am a great believer in the Conetrol projectionless split scope rings, although other brands have come close to catching up in the 35 years or so since I bought mine. The top of the line model actually is in two pieces, secured by a turning cap which blends invisibly with the rest. You can have them with or without tiny screws to hold the halves of the bottom spigot together when the scope is off the rifle, and they also do a one-piece version which is solid at the top and split only at the bottom for a scope without a front bell. It wouldn't be hard to make a tightening collar into which the stock bolt would screw.

http://www.conetrol.com/signature.html

For a smaller diameter, if you made a similar band which was flat and thin, with a split spigot, you could wedge it wide enough for the front sight to go between the halves of the spigot, and I think it would clamp shut to a smooth round shape afterwards.

[adrians]

mine has the Pacific "no drill" sight on it, I like it.

And a Rice , I like that too,,,

[kir_kenix]

I swapped out all the defective parts from another Krag, so the action is pretty well ready to go. The adjustment screws for the rear Williams sight finally came loose after sitting partially submerged in penetrating oil for 24 hours. I found some replacements that weren't as gouged up and rusty. Several more barrel cleanings have shown that there is still plenty more gunk that needs to be removed. I may have to resort to ammonia as that old cupro-nickel fouling is a pain, and judging from the vintage I'm guessing that's what it is.

Still need to do a chamber cast and barrel slugging to see what dimensions I'm dealing with here. Hoping this one ends up having a fairly reasonable chamber and throat, but I wouldn't place any bets on it. Then again, seeing how well the .310 sized boolits shot I may luck out yet. Everybody says they had the barrel issues figured out by '98, but I'm sure there were still some wonky ones being made at that point.

I'm also bidding on a Norwegian Krag action with no barrel or trigger. Anybody know if the barrel threads/diameter are the same as the ones Frankford Arsenal built?

Der Gebirgsajeger:
I found your previous post. You did a really good job, and I'm envious of your collection of Krags. Most of mine are just various parts in boxes, waiting to be resurrected into complete rifles lol. I think I might attempt making something similar if I can't find something suitable. How far forward of the receiver ring do you suggest?

I have a couple sets of sling swivels that clamp on to barrels that I may be able to modify to work. They are just the Uncle Mikes sling swivel sets that I use on Remington 760 and 7600's, but it looks like it wouldn't be to hard to cut them off square at the bottom and tap them for another stud after soldering them to the barrel. Kind of along the same lines that Ballistic in Scotland mentioned.

Shooter 93:
That is a gorgeous Krag! I love the quarter rib. What are the flip up sights regulated to? I'm very confident mine won't end up looking that classy. I really like how the stock maker narrowed out the stock in front of the action, some I've seen look way too wide for a field gun. Yours looks perfect in about every way.

Covering the magazine inlet on the left side made me do a double take in the first picture. Between that and the quarter rib I wasn't sure it was a Krag at first.

adrians:
Yup, that's exactly what I'm looking for. A couple actually. The Rice looks classier on the rifle, but doesn't afford the adjustment that some of the others have. I tracked down a new-in-box 70-k, but the guy wants almost half what I'll have into the whole project, stock and all. A reasonably priced used one will show up sooner or later I'm sure.

Now all I've got to do is wait for the parts to show up.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

K.K.: The barrel ring is really a judgment call on your part. It could be right up against the front of the receiver ring, or it could be anywhere along the barrel from that point to where a forward sling swivel would be located. You'll notice shooter93's rifle has a screw visible half way between the trigger guard and the front swivel, and I've seen many anchored in that location. You seem to have some promising ideas as to how to proceed. I've often thought that clamp together half rings like those used on the tube of a lever action to mount detachable sling swivels might somehow be made to work if only their diameter was larger. BIS has a pretty good idea in that one might somehow modify a scope ring to work--something I've never looked into. The reason why I favor the open top split ring is that it allows one to slide it past the front sight, and not being a full ring it doesn't pass over the top of the barrel and distract the eye when aiming. However, I don't see that as being a problem at all if a full ring was close to the front edge of the receiver ring. I have seen rifles where the forward screw anchored directly into a threaded hole in the barrel, but it has to be a thickly walled barrel. Even so, that usually makes for a fairly shallow hole. I was taught that one achieves 75% of the potential holding ability of a screw with three complete turns, so in some cases that might be sufficiently strong, but I'd want it to be well forward of the peak pressure zone. If you get a chance, give us some photos. I'd enjoy seeing your before/during/after project pictures.

[JMax]

Could you post a higher rez image as I cannot read this one due to its resolution?

[Artful]

Could you post a higher rez image as I cannot read this one due to its resolution?

If your talking about Der Gebirgsjager notes on the screw replacement



- this is what I read...

Krag Rifle

Side plate screw: 26 TPI .186 Diam Size 9(?)+

Drill Bits sized for butt plate screws:
Large screw: 1/4" Small screw: 5/32"

Side Plate screw revisited:

This is a very Odd screw with an old time thread that is difficult to measure accurately.

It might be 26 TPI - But is also close to 24 TPI. It is also close to being size 10. A 10-24 screw will enter the sideplate hole and turn about 3 turns before binding.

The problem with the screw is in the installation of "no gunsmithing Lyman and Redfield receiver peep sights as manufactured many years ago Specifically for Krag rifles. The Original sideplate's screw hole along with a longer replacement screw is used to secure the sight to the side of the receiver thru the sideplate. The original shorter screw is relatively common and easy to obtain, but the longer replacement screw is often not found with the sight when purchased used, as almost all of them are.

I have found that an ordinary 10-24 screw may be made to work by running a 10-24 tap into the side plate hole. After doing this operation both the original screw and the 10-24 screw will screw down tightly. One can see that the threads inside the hole are not as clean cut and continuous as they appeared before the tap was used, but apparently there remains enough of the new thread for either screw to grip.

I have performed this thread/hole conversion on 4 rifles, and all turned out well.

I used a new sharp tap. No clearance drill was necessary. I do not know how well the new screw would continue to hold if the sight was repeatedly removed and reinstalled to permit removal of the the bolt for bore cleaning from the breech end of the receiver.

Better to remove the elevation bar from the sight to permit bolt removal after carefully noting the elevation setting of the bar, locktite is also an option.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks, Artful. Just looked at it again and saw the request from Jmax. I guess that's what he was talking about---not very specific as to who he was addressing or what he was referring to. For me, if I just click on the photos, they enlarge and are easier to read.