So what the hell happened here?!!!

[snuffy]

Mistakes can and do happen. Case in point, the following pic;



The center piece of brass is what a .308 winchester looks like after being fired in a .280 rifle. It happened in a Remington 7400, the rifle survived undamaged. My nephews attention is somewhat less than it should be, he was loading from a box of loose shells that had both .280 and .308 in it, didn't notice.

I'd say you didn't notice a double charge. Deeper seating does raise pressure, but not to the point of blowing a case like that. I'm not familiar with titegroup, is 5.0 a max charge? If not then a slightly deeper boolit would not do what happened here.

Chambering a SWC in a .45 is iffy in some pistols. My SA 45 will not chamber reliably with plated 200 SWC. Never tried PB SWC boolits.

[rbuck351]

this case had way to much pressure. look at the primer hole and the flash hole. couple of possible reasons 1 double charge 2 bullet pushed way back in case when going from mag to chamber. I believe probably #2 In seating the bullet all the way inside the case there is nothing for the case mouth to bite into when crimping. This makes it easy to push the bullet back until it is stopped by the powder and still chamber with just a little bad luck. If that happened you get just what the picture shows. When I did it, it blew the mag out the bottom and the grips of the gun. Stings like mad. The reason I believe this is what happened is in my case the next round was rammed into the feed ramp with the bullet firmly against the powder. Just my guess, but it sure looks similar. rbuck

[35remington]

Dale and the previous poster nailed it.

Your two problems - to echo the other guys:

Your COAL is too short. 1911's were not designed to feed that OAL. Kachunky feed results, gun is more likely to push bullet in the case.
Poorly applied crimp combined with flush bullet seating.

Taper crimps loosen bullet pull if done even a little excessively or badly. Idea is just to turn in case mouth flare from bullet seating. When correctly done, taper crimps do nothing to improve bullet tension. Best case is they do not make it worse. If you crimp such that the bullet must plow into the case mouth to be stopped you're crimping too much and placing too much faith in a little ring of lead.

Truth is, you're shoving a tapered bullet into a tapered case after taper crimping. Not good for bullet pull.

What is your case diameter at the case mouth after crimping?

I see IPSC shooters at my range using .465" and it makes me cringe.

[9.3X62AL]

I will NEVER use range pickup brass--PERIOD--unless I KNOW FOR A FACT it is once-fired factory ammo leftovers. Brass is becoming so pricey that any getting left on the ground has a strong likelihood of being left on the ground for a very good reason--it's shot out. Bite the bullet, and order a lot of known-history brass from one of the online components suppliers. I don't know of a vendor that can supply new eyes at any price.

[Bass Ackward]

Could be as most have suggested.

Another possibility is that people always assume that lead is going to throw less pressure than jacketed. And for a very large percentage of the time, it does. But once in a while under certain conditions lead can throw much more pressure.

If a load is developed that is operating marginally. Marginal is defined as one where everything is in balance but it works at the far end of a particular hardness, and at the far end of a lubes operating level and maybe no leading results because the load is developed under cooler conditions. If a gun was fired hot and this balance was lost lost on both ends, you would be subject to galling and a momentarily stuck slug in a shooting platform .... not designed to contain this for enough time for it to break free. In a platform that would support it fully, all you would see would be a flier and the beginning of leading. But that could happen with 3 grains of Tightgroup for that matter. Brass is the weakest link in the firing chain.

There is an old axiom to develop your loads under as hot a conditions as you will experience. With a semi, temperature can get out of hand quickly. This is why that train of thought came about.

[hershey]

wow, thats scary, i can't add much to whats been said, but i know that i have sent trouble prone guns on down the road before because i don't have the expertise to sort out the problems w/ them. sounds more like a loading issue than a bad gun, but i have made allot of trips to gunsmiths and spent allot of money trying to sort out an ill performing 1911, i finally had enough and sent it down the road w/ a disclaimer.

[Cloudpeak]

Random thoughts and comments:

The TL 200 SWC Lee bullet had trouble feeding 100% in both my 1911's. Yours is loaded too short. The "tumble bands" make it hard with this bullet design to find a "solid" part to lay the case mouth into when taper crimping.

The non-tumble lube bullet did better. The Lyman bullet is 100% in both pistols.

I wish we could come up with a different, non-confusing term for removing the case mouth bell on semi-auto brass. When most people hear crimp, they think "roll the case mouth into a crimp groove or over a driving band." With revolvers, this is the thing to do.

With any cartridge that head spaces on the rim, this is not what we want. On semi-auto loads a "crimp" is simply removing the case mouth bell so the cartridge will feed into the chamber. Bullet tension is a function of the sizing die/expander plug and bullet diameter. I've never had problems with the re-size die but I have "turned down" an expander plug or two to get good tension on the bullet. I always test dummy rounds for bullet setback by taking a caliper measurement and then loading the dummy rounds several times and checking for setback.

I shoot a lot of range brass. I clean the brass in my Lyman "tumbler" and then check for obvious defects and cull "A Merc" brass. I also check case heads for "bulge". If anything looks fishy, into the scrap bin it goes. When I'm cycling brass through my Hornady L-N-L progressive, if a case resizes harder than all the others (you get a pretty good feel for this after a few rounds), into the scrap bin it goes.

On the L-N-L, I always check powder level before placing the bullet on the case mouth. As this is an indexing press, it would take a lot of bad luck to get a double charge.

Good luck and I'm glad nobody was hurt.

(A post to the gunsmithing section on: http://forum.m1911.org/index.php? might yield some more opinions.)

Cloudpeak

[monadnock#5]

Another possibility: The consensus so far on powder charge is a double charge. Perhaps, but maybe there's another scenario. You carefully weigh out your charges when setting up, and when everything is good, so you then dump charges as fast as you can index the cases. When done you give the cases a look see and all are charged, so it's on to seating.

What I,ve found on occasion is that at some point a measure will throw short charges. When the powder builds up in the measure, at some point it all dumps at once. So you end up with 2 or 3 short loads and 1 Depending on the number of charges thrown, you can go through several cycles of this.

Why? Me not know. Static, humidity, the moon drifted out of alignment with Sagitarius? All of the above?

So that's why we use the knocker each time, or double tap at the top and bottom of the stroke, rap the measure with a police baton, whatever works. Weigh multiple charges at setup, at the end, and at several points in between. And one more thing, at inspection, look carefully at each charge. If you see one that doesn't look right, weigh it. It's the only way to know for sure.

[Down South]

It looks like it was out of battery or too much powder or the bullet was seated too deep causing a compressed charge. Anyone of these can cause this to happen.

What I,ve found on occasion is that at some point a measure will throw short charges. When the powder builds up in the measure, at some point it all dumps at once. So you end up with 2 or 3 short loads and 1 Depending on the number of charges thrown, you can go through several cycles of this.

I've had this happen once with a 38 Special. One small bang then several shots later, Boom. Scared the crap out of me. The only thing that I could contribute it to was my powder measure somehow bridged over on one load then dropped a full load plus what was left from the previous load in the next round. I no longer use that powder.

[44man]

Yes, recoil could have moved the boolit into the case while in the magazine increasing pressure. Not a good idea to seat over the front edge of a boolit.
Since the 1911 does not have a disconnect at the rear of the pin, it is possible the inertia of the pin fired the case if it stopped suddenly before reaching battery. A disconnect makes the rest of the pin lighter. Might be a good time to buy a titanium pin.
I would check for a weak pin spring or crud in the hole that will prevent the pin from retracting too. Not good for the soul if the pin keeps sticking out of the hole.
Want to have fun, shoot an AK version with reloads. Full auto for a while! They were too stupid to spring the pin. They just made primers tougher. Load the mag, point the gun safe and release the bolt for a slam fire every time. I have converted a bunch for springs.

[JIMinPHX]

Not too much left to add here… The likely causes have been pretty well covered. My bet is on one of three things. It could be a hot powder charge, a failure to go fully into battery before firing or a feed ramp that was over-chamfered to facilitate better feeding. I don’t think that looks like over-used brass, although if it were a balloon head case (very rare these days) that could also be the problem. Since you are not seeing this problem on a regular basis, I’m going to cross off the over-chamfering possibility from my list too. If that was the case, you would be seeing bulged brass more often. If it was an overcharge, you would also see signs of high pressure on the rear of the case. If they are not there, then you were probably not fully in battery when the gun fired & the gun itself needs to be looked at by a qualified pistolsmith. The following pictures are from an overcharged round. Note the rear of the case & how it flowed into the recess near the extractor in the gun. This case didn't let go, but it was a half a heartbeat away from bursting. Both these pieces of brass were fired from the same gun the same day.

[Echo]

I've seen factory loads blow in a similar fashion - blow out the bottom of the case, where it is unsupported by the barrel. But not in such an exciting manner. I'm voting for a double charge. And if the magazine wasn't blown out, and the stocks blown up, and SPLINTERED, you and your friend are very lucky.

And I agree - seat the bullets out .020-.040 so the bullet contacts the rifling. Contrary to popular belief, the .45ACP does not headspace on the case mouth. Measure the depth of the chamber, then look in a manual for the trim-to length, measure your own cases, and see the difference. I was told by several very high-powered smiths that the round headspaces on the bullet/boolit, and one should seat the projectile out to contact the rifling. If you try a loaded round in the barrel, and it is a mite proud, don't worry - it WILL seat when the slide goes into battery.

Meine zwei pfennig...

[mtgrs737]

I would consider not crimping so much, the loaded round has quite a bit of crimp and it may be that the round is cambering a little too deep and pinching the case mouth in the leade of the barrel bore enough to cause a spike in pressure. Tightgroup is a fast powder and your charge is near maximum, this and the slow to release pinching effect may of over stressed the used range brass enough to cause the rupture. Bullet fit alone should be enough to hold the boolit in place when using good brass. Get some new or once fired brass and a taper crimp die and crimp to just remove the flare that is applied to aid in seating a lead boolit.

[35remington]

"Contrary to popular belief, the .45ACP does not headspace on the case mouth."

Whoopsie. With many if not most jacketed rounds loaded by the factory, it does indeed headspace on the case mouth. Chambering a round in the barrel while out of the gun shows this simply and easily. Not a hijack - just an erroneous common belief that many promulgate, and that we've had some success correcting that here. Many handloaded rounds may indeed headspace on the bullet, especially lead bullets, as commonly loaded.

Regards the kaboom, care is the ony prevention.

[dubber123]

Well, one of your questions regarded the hard seating of primers, and I wondered if some of your brass is military, and has a crimped in primer. They de-prime just fine, but I find they need a little chamfer to allow easy re-priming. If not chamfered, they will shave, bind, or just not go in. I just use my RCBS case mouth tool to do this.

[sniper]

Definitely, overpressure, IMO. When I first started reloading, I was shooting with a guy who was using a hot load and iirc, cast 250gr. 45-70 bullets in his 1911. I noticed that it was ejecting really forcefully, straight up. He would shoot, and I could follow the case up, holler "I got it!" wait a beat or two, and catch it. Then I noticed that two or three cases had neat little scoops blown in the base, where the case was unsupported.

Then the pistol disassembled itself...The bushing broke, and the mainspring landed about 6 feet in front of us.

It was an old war weary 1911, but it shows the manufacturers do a very good job of protecting us from ourselves. I don't think deep seating all by itself would cause such a failure. New brass seems to be indicated, as well as a careful check of charge weights, bullet weight/diameter, and seating depth.

[38-55]

Hello Tumtatty,
Wow ! That looks to be an airplane wreck !.. No one factor by it self but a bunch of little ones all coming together to cause a blow out.. Bullet looks to be slightly over sized.. normally no big deal, case looks to be slightly skewed.. causing it to not lay flat in the chamber.. no big deal normally.. max charge..never really a good thing.. range pick up brass.. well I hope you've learned a lesson there... it's never a good idea to put some else's trash ( hey, they would pick it up if it wasn't trash ) in your weapon... Primer hole looks to be large... that will spike pressure in a heartbeat...new gun with tight chamber which is a good thing normally.. Primer compound/pellet crushed during loading process changing burn rate... never a good thing. But As I see it your main problem is/was your crimp. It's a roll crimp ya got there not a taper crimp.
A roll crimp on a cartridge that head spaces on case length is a disaster waiting to happen. It causes a headspace issue. It allows the case to go farther into the chamber than it should normally thus causing excessive headspace. The extractor will hold the case against the breach face so the firing pin can ignite the charge... but the firing pin shoves the front of the case into the throat/barrel and the roll crimp actually helps funnel the the case into the rifling thus turning a straight walled case into a bottlenecked cartridge. No place for the cartridge to expand except........Not good. Let's recap... large,crooked bullet with over sized flash hole and a crushed primer pellet jammed into the rifling with a max charge under it in a tight chamber with trash brass.
Dude I'm glad your OK !
Hope this helps.
Stay safe
Calvin
PS Not to long ago I ran across some r&p brass that was supposed to be super clean or some such and it had wayyyyy over sized flash holes

[gcf]

I agree that SWC's should be seated with the front driving band 25-50 thousandths outside the case mouth. Doing so permits the crimp die to set the inside case edge into the bullet making it harder to push the bullet deeper into the case... another possible explination for this event.

The MilSpec has a throated barrel with a polished feed ramp; seating SWC bullets a little longer shouldn't cause any chambering problems as long as they feed in the magazine well.

Boomer

+ 1 for this possibility. A short SWC round that is crimped too high, could easily get pushed into the case by hitting the feed ramp on a less then optimal angle.

Happened to me once, but fortunately jammed - instead of chambering. I would suspect that a bullet pushed .250" - .350" into the case, would raise pressure into the double charge range. The matter could be complicated further, w/ a fast powder...

A possibility that could contribute to an out of battery ignition, is a borderline barrel lug, or slide / frame fitment issue. Teamed up w/ a light, or worn recoil spring (and / or excess fouling), & the slide / barrel might not return fully into battery on a 100% basis.

After unloading - & chamber checking twice, you might slowly hand cycle the slide 30 - 40 times. A 1911 that is new (or old, I suppose) w/ borderline fitment issues, will sometimes require a bit of a nudge on the back of the slide, to go into battery when cycled slowly.

Anyway, just my $0.02. Glad no one got hurt.

[44man]

Do dies for the ACP come with a roll crimp? I think they all have the taper crimp but going back to the picture, it is way over done. Something I didn't see right off. Without a portion of a boolit to restrict the crimp, it can roll over like a roll crimp.
All you want to do is straighten the flare and snug the case to the boolit.
Then seating the boolit that deep to get a roll over the edge is also raising pressure let alone what happens if it is driven into the lead.

[docone31]

The Lee Dies for the 45 ACP also work with 45 Auto Rim. The Auto Rim crimps.
I loaded up some using the four dies and it started to crimp. I backed off to use the final die as a sizer. It did some crimping, just making a small roll down. I tried them in the chamber and they stop.
I can see how that particular set can be used to make a crimp. The three die set does not crimp.
I usually, at least to this point, use jacketed in the 45. I loaded lead and got the four die station for my press. That is when the crimp showed. I never used the sizer die untill then. It has hence been removed.
I can see how that would have happened.