need help with 45 colt blackhawk

[dubber123]

I can catch them in a box of rags about ten feet in front of the barrel

It sounds like you are good then. I can clearly see mine fly in the larger bores. I have heard of some people trying to lap with much too hot of a load, so I thought I would ask. Als question about your dies is a good thought, I think I went through a few sets of 45 LC dies until I made up a set that did what I needed them to. Too small of an expander can be a big problem.

[mike69]

It sounds like you are good then. I can clearly see mine fly in the larger bores. I have heard of some people trying to lap with much too hot of a load, so I thought I would ask. Als question about your dies is a good thought, I think I went through a few sets of 45 LC dies until I made up a set that did what I needed them to. Too small of an expander can be a big problem.

have to take some measurements and see what they are that's one I never thought of

[GSaltzman]

When it comes to expander plugs Buckshot from this forum makes mine plus I have started using some from NOE. In my opinion the best way to go.

[mike69]

My brass as fired is .476 gets sized to .469 the expander is .453 takes the brass up to .472 and with a 452 boolit in it it goes to.475 I am using lee dies. I do use the lee fcd but it does not touch the brass when crimping so shouldn't cause any sizing down of the boolit. dose that sound ok with those dimensions ?

[9.3X62AL]

IHMSA for years of experience. You will not believe how the 4227's behave in a .44.
2400 is still one of the greats. It worked then and it still works. But for the higher end 296 is a Rugers love.
Now I do NOT know what 4227 will do in a .45, after the .44's I have never been inclined to try it.

WW-296/H-110 was a long-term fixture in the Magnum revolvers with jacketed bullets for me. J-words get little play here anymore, and 2400 does such good work with the castings that I don't stray far from it.

[44man]

The 4227 has been pretty good in my 454 and 357 going to try 296 in the 454 shot some but just at steel haven't really checked group size with a target yet ill try it in the 45 when I get it figured out going to lap it some more and try the 4227 this weekend have to make up some more lapping rounds

Be very careful with 296 in the .454! You NEED max loads or it can fail to ignite and will stick boolits and powder in the bore. The SR primer is wrong and only solved by cutting down .460 brass so you can use a LP mag primer. If you fool with any starting loads in the .454, carry a brass rod and hammer, Pay attention to EVERY shot and make sure the boolits exit.
I do things different then everyone and use harder boolits. I use Hornady dies that have a very short expander for jacketed and I let my boolit do the final expanding. I will never give up tension for ease of seating--NO "M" or over size expanders here.
My .45 Vaquero has done this at 50 yards when I could see and has done 1" at 75 yards. Attachment 163861

[44man]

I don't remember the boolit I used but only had 2, the Lyman 320 and the LBT 335 gr. 21.5 gr of 296 with a Fed 150 primer. At 75 one was 1" right of the bull and the other 1" left, same size group.
I dropped a deer with a neck shot, off hand at 100-110 yards with it. I do have lighter boolits used with 7 gr of Unique for cans and they shoot very good but I never try to reach deer levels with the fast powders. You NEED energy. You NEED accuracy first of all when hunting.
The old saw of "PLACEMENT" goes away with a handgun waving around. A deer is VERY small at 100+ and as you get older it gets worse. It gets tough at 20 yards.
Make use of all you can learn when young and test everything. It will be harder at old age.

[Swede44mag]

I was going to post a question about my (new) new model SS Ruger Blackhawk while slugging the barrel with a pure lead round ball once I got it started it went down the barrel then got tighter before it exited the forcing cone measuring .450 with my Starrett Micrometer. I have opened the cylinder throats (.450 to .4525) using a reamer I bought from Brownells to do my Vaquero. Doesn't Ruger know about this problem or is it they don't care. I haven't thought about fire lapping the bore.

[44man]

I don't know Ruger's problem with the .45 and Yes I had to lap my throats.
Gun makers do not consider cast or handloads.

[spfd1903]

"Doesn't Ruger know about this problem or is it they don't care. I haven't thought about fire lapping the bore."

My .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk shot Hornady 250 grain HP/XTP's very accurately out of the box, but would not do the same with any type of boolit. After the cylinder throats were reamed to .452+ and the forcing cone got an 11 degree cut, the accuracy of my boolits is fantastic. If I sent it to Ruger, they would have fired some commercial bullets, and sent it back with a great group on a target. I knew from reading this forum that 44man summed it up accurately...they don't make them with boolit casters in mind. We are on our own. I had the same issue with a NM Ruger Vaquero (.45 Colt).

[9.3X62AL]

My brass as fired is .476 gets sized to .469 the expander is .453 takes the brass up to .472 and with a 452 boolit in it it goes to.475 I am using lee dies. I do use the lee fcd but it does not touch the brass when crimping so shouldn't cause any sizing down of the boolit. dose that sound ok with those dimensions ?

It is a LOT better than what I got from the RCBS die set initially. That .453" expander spud is a godsend. I have very little experience with the Lee FCD, and can't comment on its utility. LOTS of reloaders whose opinions I respect REALLY like the Lee FCDs, though.

[mike69]

Be very careful with 296 in the .454! You NEED max loads or it can fail to ignite and will stick boolits and powder in the bore. The SR primer is wrong and only solved by cutting down .460 brass so you can use a LP mag primer. If you fool with any starting loads in the .454, carry a brass rod and hammer, Pay attention to EVERY shot and make sure the boolits exit.
I do things different then everyone and use harder boolits. I use Hornady dies that have a very short expander for jacketed and I let my boolit do the final expanding. I will never give up tension for ease of seating--NO "M" or over size expanders here.
My .45 Vaquero has done this at 50 yards when I could see and has done 1" at 75 yards. Attachment 163861

the load I use in the 454 with the 296 the case is filled to the bottom of the boolet. When go to shoot it to find the best accuracy with it a may start 1 to 1.5 gr bellow but no lower read to much about not having the case capacity to low with them. I wouldn't mined try the 460 brass its kust cost so much and only have 100 of them now for my encore with a 15 inch 460 barrel.

[mike69]

I don't remember the boolit I used but only had 2, the Lyman 320 and the LBT 335 gr. 21.5 gr of 296 with a Fed 150 primer. At 75 one was 1" right of the bull and the other 1" left, same size group.
I dropped a deer with a neck shot, off hand at 100-110 yards with it. I do have lighter boolits used with 7 gr of Unique for cans and they shoot very good but I never try to reach deer levels with the fast powders. You NEED energy. You NEED accuracy first of all when hunting.
The old saw of "PLACEMENT" goes away with a handgun waving around. A deer is VERY small at 100+ and as you get older it gets worse. It gets tough at 20 yards.
Make use of all you can learn when young and test everything. It will be harder at old age.

Shot a deer about 90 yrds away with the 454 last season and the do get small out there even with my scope on it. I practice with the 454 at 100 yards on 4 and 6 inch steel targets. got into the hand gun hunting a few years ago with the encore then the 454 this past year dint use my rifle at all this year only been casting maybe year and half to two years started with a cap and ball and figured I could for all my hand guns now I am addicted I have learned a lot from all of you been reading on here since I started casting wish I started doing this a lot sooner been reloading rifles for at least 20 years for deer hunting

[mike69]

It is a LOT better than what I got from the RCBS die set initially. That .453" expander spud is a godsend. I have very little experience with the Lee FCD, and can't comment on its utility. LOTS of reloaders whose opinions I respect REALLY like the Lee FCDs, though.

Yea I like the fcd never had any issues with mine all my dies are lee except some rcbs for rifles

[44man]

Back in the day, I used ONLY RCBS and still use a lot of their stuff except dies now.
IHMSA taught me things I never considered and is when I discovered case tension had to be even.
Of course I was using the SBH in .44. RCBS was not working so I had special BR dies made with sizing collars and things turned around but they are a pain to use. They need no expander and work though. Testing dies led me to Hornady and I will never go back to anything else. No, I can't use soft boolits. They will surely get sized when seated.
A gun writer was having trouble with his .45 Colts and RCBS modified the dies by making the expander SMALLER. But as far as I know, it was only the .45 dies.
Even tension was paramount with bullets so I did the same work with cast and that meant a tough boolit.
I started to shoot 40's at IHMSA shoots and won Ohio state with 79 out of 80 and the last ram miss was my fault. To hit 20 straight turkeys was amazing for a revolver back then. Open sights, production, International class. I was getting 200 meter groups as good as unlimited guns. But I had EYES too.
At the time I also did extensive testing with powders and primers to find the mag primer is wrong in the .44 and so is any 4227. 4227 gave me good groups until the gun warmed up, then velocity increased with every shot. That made POI lower with each until I would be 16 clicks over normal at 200 and still hit 50 meters short. 296 solved all that. I found case size determines the primer and only go to the Fed 155 when I reach the .454 with .460 brass and the .475 and up. Works best in the .500 S&W too, no need for a LR. I also use the 155 in the 45-70. It works in my 30-30 Marlin with 3031, 4895 and Varget. I have taken the 155 to over 55,000# in the .454 without a flat one.
This is what a friends Freedom was getting with factory or his jacketed loads at 50 yards on the left and my PB cast on the right, loaded to over max.Attachment 163914

[Tar Heel]

I have been shooting revolvers a very long time and have seen the type of leading you describe on quite a few occasions. I have never lapped a barrel nor worried about a constriction to get rid of the leading. Based on my experience here are the reasons, in no particular order. It can be a combination of reasons.

1. Hard bevel base bullets with crappy wax lube. Softer bullets and softer lube will take care of this.
2. A rough forcing cone. Lapping the forcing cone with a brass lap and 600 grit compound will cure this.
3. If the tool marks in the forcing cone are to great to be lapped out, the cone will have to be recut. Care should be taken that there is a smooth transition to the rifling with no sharp edges to scrap the lead.

Both DougGuy and Char-Gar are spot on. My two Rugers would not shoot worth a darn with cast bullets. Look....it's simple. Most folks shoot factory jacketed stuff and the guns are set up for that. If you want to shoot cast bullets, send the gun to DougGuy for an evaluation but at the very LEAST, get the forcing cone cleaned up by him.

Then....play with your alloy. If you are shooting factory cast bullets, they are unreasonably hard and use concrete for bullet lube. I use an alloy of about 11 BHN or a tad softer with both the 250gr RCBS KTSWC and the 250gr Lyman 454190. I use White's 50/50 lube on standard pressure 45 Colt loads. After DougGuy cleaned up the forcing cones and matched the throats, the guns shoot extremely well now.

Clean up the forcing cone, verify the throats are good or at least get the dimensions the same, cast your own known alloy bullets at or .005 greater than your known throat diameter, use proper bullet lube, and then enjoy the results with cast bullets.

I haven't put any factory jacketed through mine - ever. I wonder if it would even shoot well. My throats are .4525 and factory stuff shoots .451 bullets.

Hope this all works out for you.

Ruger forcing cone after DougGuy cleaned it up.
Attachment 163923

Same forcing cone from Ruger factory.
Attachment 163924

[mike69]

I am slowly getting the hand gun stuff figured out its defiantly different then the rifles. the more I shoot with them its getting easier to get a decent group heck I may have found some loads that would shoot great and I just couldn't shoot them that's why I am going to work up some more for the 454 now that im getting better shooting it. The best groups iv shoot with a hand gun is with my encore and that was about a 1 to 1.25 group at 100 yard with a 15 inch 30-06 barrel from the bench and scoped. Would like to get there with the other hand guns some day too. Just wish I got earlier start with the handguns. First time I took the encore hunting had three deer walking real slow around less than 40 yrds away and could not keep any of the in the scope after they got out of sit I sat there laughing thinking with my rifle I could of shot them all. Since then the rifle very seldom get shot and ive got 5 deer with my handguns would like to get my 45 shooting good and use I t this deer season too. I would like to know half of what some of you guys have forgot about this hobby .

[44man]

Doug does great work but a Taylor throat is not in my cards. Boolit is at a very high velocity when hitting the rifling. True I don't care about jump but I will not extend it that much.

[mike69]

here's what it looks like to me the rifling don't look right the way it starts out narrow if you can see it what do you think.

[DougGuy]

That looks pretty rounded on the leade in not tapered at all, and the leading edge of the lands SHOULD be square and rather sharp at the beginning of the rifling. Those are far from it.

Forcing cone recut will not reach that far into the bore without totally cutting the fire ring too thin and by the looks of it, I'm not of the opinion that someone hasn't already been there before with lapping boolits or some type of abrasive. Is that a new gun or used?

Edit: I went and read the OP, there is too much metal already removed to clean it up with a forcing cone cutter. It WOULD take a Taylor Throat reamer and that's what it would take to cure this one unless you send it back and get another barrel put on it.

From seeing this forcing cone and the lands there, unless you decide to Taylor Throat that barrel, it LOOKS like there is already too much metal removed to recut the forcing cone. The fire ring, which is the squared off 90° portion at the end of the barrel, looks like it is cut fairly thin already. Maybe it's just the way the camera picks up the different colors and shadows but it looks already cut thin. You can recut the forcing cone but you DO NOT want to cut into the fire ring! You should STOP when you get to the edge of the factory chamfer at the end of the barrel. There is a small chamfer on the outer edge of the beginning of the forcing cone cut. This chamfer MUST NOT be enlarged past the edge of it.

My opinion on this one would be to send it back to Ruger and let them stick another barrel in it IF they would. They may elect to rebarrel it, they may shoot it with their factory equivalent .45 Colt loads and if it groups they may send it back. I would write them a nice letter, short, address the specific issue with the forcing cone, LEAVE OUT any discussion of cylinder throats and stick to the one subject and ask them to consider putting a new barrel in there, tell they you shoot FACTORY lead cowboy loads, don't mention anything about reloads, and just hope they take pity on it and rebarrel it.

I don't think that I could make this:



From the barrel as pictured, if I had it in my hands.

I can Taylor throat ream it, which would fix the forcing cone and the leade ins, oh it looks awesome and shoots REALLY WELL to boot, but IF the fire ring has already been narrowed? That would be a dealbreaker for me. I would send it back to Ruger and at least give their Customer Service a shot at it. If they send back a new barrel that has a choke in it, then there is something to work with. If they send back a new barrel and there is no perceivable choke? Problem solved, re do the cylinder throats and you are good to go. Recut the forcing cone IF it looks rough or too small or uneven. The least you tell them, the least you are in anger, the better your results will be with them. They LOVE it when customers tell them that they are the BEST in the industry so tell them that if you send it in.

For the record here is my Taylor Throated Vaquero, this one was severely choked from Ruger torquing the barrel to bring the POI to the sights. It was shooting 10" left when it was new and they cranked on it HARD to move point of impact that far at 25yds... They got it shooting to the front sight, I will give them that much but man oh man did they ever squeeze the daylights out of the barrel! It slugged .448"