Model 22

[calsite]

Just picked up a S&W Mod. 22, .45 ACP revolver, I've casted some for my .45 ACP already using a Lee 200 gr. TL, SWC mould. Anyone shot these out of a revolver? I would think they would shoot fine. Any other suggestions if I were to eventually get a 4 Banger mould for this caliber, what kind?

[MtGun44]

A friend has the new 4" model 22 fixed sight version and sent it back as it
was extremely inaccurate. Just read a test in one of the mags of the longer
barreled version and the tester got 3-4" at 15 yds - which is pretty darned
poor if you ask me.

My new fixed sight 4" Mod 21 (.44 Spl) is a real decent shooter, but somehow they
seem to be having issues with the M 22s. My M1937 Brazilian contract (same
as 1917-.45ACP) is VERY picky about what it will shoot well. It has .454 throats so
does badly with .451 and .452 boolits. Only fair with jacketed, too. With my own
moderately soft 452423s at .454 and 7.0 gr Unique (which is pretty hot, but
Elmer recommended 7.5 Unique as accurate) was accurate in my gun, but I am a
bit worried that it may be too hot.

My 1937 would shoot about 6-8" at 25 yds with .452" 452423s and moderate
loads. These were hard, too small commercially cast boolits. I got a mold that will cast just
at .454", same design. These went immediately to 4" at 25 yds, occasionally
better. 7.0 Unique dropped this to 1 3/4", a huge improvement. I also have one
moderate power group with a LBT .454 WFN that was pretty good, too. Haven't revisited that
one to verify.

Throat size is a real critical issue, esp with these short boolits. You really need to
match the boolit diam to the throat, if the throat is larger than the barrel diam.
Read the sticky on revolver accy at the front of the pistol page. Gotta know these basic
things to get a revolver to shoot well, unless you are lucky and all the dimension
correct for standard bullet diameter to work best. This happens but not real often.
Rugers often need the throats reamed up and S&Ws (esp older) often had oversized
throats, needing oversized boolits, like my M1937 (M1917 clone).

here is the link:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=21598
Bill

[Bret4207]

Excellent post Bill. Your experience mirrors mine as far as size, etc. Ol' Elmer knew what he was talking about.

[MtGun44]

Bret -

I have finally started just getting down Keith's books and doing the research
before I even start on a new revolver project. That old man knew a whole
lot about shooting revolvers, and it is amazing to take a gun that was
iron ore in the ground when he wrote it and see that it does what he says
it will do.

I don't agree with him on everything, but he sure knew about revolvers.

It just happened to be something that I had been working on for a while.

So you've had similar results? Please share.

Bill

[NoDakJak]

MtGun44 You hold out high hopes for this old country boy. I am going to break out the old 1917 S&W and go to work. At the moment it sits in a drawer without sights awaiting a close range burglar shot. About twenty years ago there were a number of us that gathered unoficially and practiced double action, two handed shooting from waist level. Targets were usually three cans or corn cobs and were set at indertiminate ranges from five to thirty five yards. Two shots were fired at each target and the shots were timed. It is amazing how good the ordinary person can become at this instinct shooting. A lot of it depends on the revolver also. When we progressed to the squat position with rudimentary aimig things became really interesting. I had a two inch Model 19 that was absolutely worthless for anything else but certainly killed the corn cobs. My favorite though was my old Model 1917 shooting light 452460 loads. It was definetly deadly and astounded the other shooters due to the fact that it didn't have any sights. Someone had ground off the front sight and had filed a dovetail for the rear sight but had never got around to installing them. It is still the same today. The only change has been the installation of a set of used "N" size target grips. I think that I will work the huge grips down to fit me, install a decent set of sights and proceed to assemble test loads in 45ar brass. Yeah! This is another chance to use that four hole Hensley & Gibbs mold. Neil

[JMax]

I have both a 21 and 22. Both shoot well for me with far better accuracy than reported here but the 22 does shoot 4" low at 25 yards. Groups are 3-4" shot off hand double action. I use a 230 gr TC bullet for the 45 (an old H&G mold but can't remember the #) in the 22 and a 240 gr SWC in the 21. Both loaded to moderate velocities in the 750 ft/sec range.

[Dale53]

I don't understand the accuracy complaints about the Model 22. Understand, I have exactly ZERO experience with them (either new or old). Years ago and far away, when I was but a lad, I did have a .45 ACP Colt ex-military revolver with a nice, new ribbed barrel that shot extremely well (it went BYE-BYE for a 1950 S&W Target .45 ACP which in turn went BYE-BYE for a 1955 S&W Target model).

At any rate, my two 625's (625-8 JM Special 4" and a 625-6 1989 Model 5") shoot EXTREMELY well - easily beating 1.0" at 25 yards off a Ransom Rest. What in the world would possess S&W to build the Model 22 with different dimensions? I am NOT disputing the statements of those who own Model 22's, I am just stating that I don't understand how/why Smith would do such a thing? The ways of commerce are a mystery to me, sometimes...

Dale53

[Bass Ackward]

The question really is, did S&W make different dimensions? I think there is a different problem. Smith does market research and asks the question, "Would you buy this?"

I assume that Smith is becoming more responsive to market conditions in an attempt to build what will sell. These things are probably on a short term basis compared to the "old" S&W. So they build quickly at first to meet distributor inventory demands and flood the market. Then they slow down the line. Understanding human nature and the stress that comes with varying levels, I can easily see where they encounter problems. IF you get a good one, you got one. If you didn't, you are just going to have to shoot the crap out of it to get it to come round.

We read that even with the 625s having pits in the barrels. I have 2, 625-8s. One was outstanding from jump street, I haven't found a way to make it lead. The other one is just as accurate, until it leads up which isn't long. It is STILL improving after 1500 rounds or so and may be able to shoot volume PB someday. Remember, a very large percentage of handguns are never shot. (If you can believe that.)

In Six Guns, you can read three different descriptions of how Elmer talked about fitting / sizing for handguns. One was to size to bore, one was to size .001 over bore, and once where he said that you could go as much as .003 over bore without having it make any difference, especially in 44 caliber on up. And those three recommendations came from him using the same mix that we would all describe as soft today.

Sizing is more critical with lower pressure level cartridges where 18k to 20k is tops. Especially when you have metal that is too hard for those levels. Even ACWW can be too hard to obturate in a timely fashion. But I can say that I have found no clear cut, pound the table, method to fitting a handgun throat. Just as soon as I think one method is best, I change mix / design and find that I get better accuracy and less leading with another method. One thing is for sure. If you are going to size to fit your throats, your barrel will adapt over time. (The problematic 625 was .4505 and is now .453 in the back.

But with filling the throats or larger, the key is that all throats must be exactly the same. And with the way that reamers are replaced in the manufacturing cycle these days, they almost never are unless you correct them. A tight throat will throw more pressure and make it seem like you have an alignment issue when you don't. You would notice this far less with bore sizing and adjusting your mix or design to seal.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive had a few 25 smith 45 acps and they can be tought guns to find loads for. What seems to work best for me in the half dozen ive owned is harder then normal bullets and sizing them to fit the throat of each individual gun. Smith tends to put shallow rifling in there 45acp revolvers and soft lead doesnt work well. Another thing ive noted over the years is they have a tendency to shoot heavier bullets like 255s better then the 200s. So im guessing there could be a twist mismatch going on with them too. Bottom line is out of all the ones ive had and had ive yet to find a tack driver. Ive never shot a one in group with any of them. I hear people all the time at competitions claim there guns a tack driver but when i ask them how it does on the bench they give me that blank stare. Most dont take home a trophy either. :My advise is that if your looking for a tack driving load start buying molds powder and primers because your going to be doing alot of expermenting.

[Bass Ackward]

Ive had a few 25 smith 45 acps and they can be tought guns to find loads for. What seems to work best for me in the half dozen ive owned is harder then normal bullets and sizing them to fit the throat of each individual gun. Smith tends to put shallow rifling in there 45acp revolvers and soft lead doesnt work well. Another thing ive noted over the years is they have a tendency to shoot heavier bullets like 255s better then the 200s. So im guessing there could be a twist mismatch going on with them too. Bottom line is out of all the ones ive had and had ive yet to find a tack driver. Ive never shot a one in group with any of them. I hear people all the time at competitions claim there guns a tack driver but when i ask them how it does on the bench they give me that blank stare. Most dont take home a trophy either. :My advise is that if your looking for a tack driving load start buying molds powder and primers because your going to be doing alot of expermenting.

Lloyd,

Really? Oh my.

I shoot a 250 grain TCPB of my own design, the 200 grain Lee RNFP, and a 260 grain LBT and almost any powder is 1 1/2. The heavies do shoot better so far, but I won't concede that without more work.

Ah remember, my range is 33 yards too. It's just for how long that they do it. Especially the problematic one. Best PB powder for longevity so far is HS7 if you can believe that.