Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

[vzerone]

Newton I don't think those empty paper towel tubes would stay on the muzzle in one piece, but I think you knew that huh? LOL I did like your idea of styrofoam though. I remember Lowes sells 1 inch thick sheets of them and I'm wondering how many layers I'd have to stack to shoot them at distance. I'll have to see how much they cost now. Wow! I tell you, in my younger days I was trail bike riding with my friend up in the Colorado mountains and we rode up to this old long deserted mine. Can't remember if it was gold or silver, but one of the buildings had these styrofoam sheets inside that were like 10 inches thick and 5x8 feet. Haven't thought about those since back then till you just mentioned shooting into styrofoam. No I'm not driving out there with a flatbed to pick them up, but I sure wish I had them here now. I'm going to give your idea good though and maybe experiment. Thanks for the idea.

[vzerone]

Geargnasher what do you think about my idea of a Micro Groove barrel in 308 or 30-06 and really pushing HV? Do you think it would be better or worse then regular rifling? Have you ever pushed light 30 caliber bullets through your Micro Groove Marlin 30-30's?

[geargnasher]

Micro-Groove the way Marlin did it is the best rifling for cast bullets ever. More than twice the torque-bearing surface in a 12-groove at 3 thousandths vs. 4-groove at 4 thousandths depth. Plus the broached rifling is more consistent than cut rifling. MG rifling got a bad rap with casters because Lyman folks don't understand what makes a cast bullet shoot straight and didn't make bullets that fit the different requirements it has. Michael Reamy understands, though. I shoot plain-base light bullets in mine but not fast. Throat starts to lead if they don't reach out and obturate the bore within a few thousandths of movement, so they have to be at least 120 grains in one of my guns and the other with the newish throat can take 100-grainers.

Wanna make a MG Marlin really shoot? Load the fattest bullet that will chamber and use one that has very little un-supported nose, make your brass a close fit in the chamber, get your neck tension uniform, and then tweak your lube. Lube performance is absolutely vital to accuracy in a MG levergun.

Gear

[Cowboy_Dan]

let's talk about that gas thing and powder timing, it's one of my favorite subjects.

Powder timing is something I need to learn more about before I start pushing the envelope with my Mosin this shooting season. And by start, I mean basically from zero.

The pound cast I did shows that it has a very long lead. It starts abruptly at the end of the neck and extends more than a half inch to beyond the end of the slug. At that point, the lands have only risen to .3105 and they measure .3023 in the barrel. Sometimes I wonder if this area is merely errosion from wartime use and the lands rise quickly somewhere beyond the end of the slug. However, the lead groove mics at .3133 for its whole length and the barrel slug is .3130.

I think in the case of my rifle, I need a boolit with a long bearing surface to fill as much of the lead as I can and to give it a gentle push with a slow for velocity level powder as it slowly becomes fully engraved. I plan to begin by using my NOE 314466 to reach the 1800-2000 level and step it up until I can't find any way to keep accuracy. At that point I am left with the Lee 312-185 or a Herter's clone of the 314299. Not sure which one is a better choice.

Sorry for rambling the whole post, I really want to learn more about powder timing and if my asumptions above are reasonable.

[newton]

Ok, I'm in for powder timing. I'm not in a place to do work of my own at this time so there is not much else I can contribute, but I'll sit and soak.

I had a chance, and still might, to get one of those big blocks you speak of. I live out by a lake and I suppose a lot of it was used for boat docks.

Just a curiousity question here, I guess I would have to go back and reread the prior threads, but has anyone achieved this HV completely and with repeatable results? As in, right now go to loading bench and load some HV ammo, then step out and shoot a group with complete confidence of where and how big the group will be?

what would be cool is a sticky of such data. Only HV load and range results. All other comments(like this one) would not be allowed.

[Bjornb]

Ok, I'm in for powder timing. I'm not in a place to do work of my own at this time so there is not much else I can contribute, but I'll sit and soak.

I had a chance, and still might, to get one of those big blocks you speak of. I live out by a lake and I suppose a lot of it was used for boat docks.

Just a curiousity question here, I guess I would have to go back and reread the prior threads, but has anyone achieved this HV completely and with repeatable results? As in, right now go to loading bench and load some HV ammo, then step out and shoot a group with complete confidence of where and how big the group will be?

what would be cool is a sticky of such data. Only HV load and range results. All other comments(like this one) would not be allowed.

Yes sir, such threads exist. Example: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e-30XCB/page41

Many pages of specific loads, shot in several different rifles, complete with target and chrono data.

[runfiverun]

I posted my load for the 308 earlier in the thread.
Bjorn took and used it and was shooting groups in the 2" area with boolits on the opposite end of the spectrum in fitment and alloy than I specified..
which leaves him a lot of room for improvement in both velocity and accuracy but would be an encouraging first go at this for anybody else to follow.
I'm waiting on a report from someone else using the same load and a boolit design closer to mine, in another make of 308 rifle.

[vzerone]

Micro-Groove the way Marlin did it is the best rifling for cast bullets ever. More than twice the torque-bearing surface in a 12-groove at 3 thousandths vs. 4-groove at 4 thousandths depth. Plus the broached rifling is more consistent than cut rifling. MG rifling got a bad rap with casters because Lyman folks don't understand what makes a cast bullet shoot straight and didn't make bullets that fit the different requirements it has. Michael Reamy understands, though. I shoot plain-base light bullets in mine but not fast. Throat starts to lead if they don't reach out and obturate the bore within a few thousandths of movement, so they have to be at least 120 grains in one of my guns and the other with the newish throat can take 100-grainers.

Wanna make a MG Marlin really shoot? Load the fattest bullet that will chamber and use one that has very little un-supported nose, make your brass a close fit in the chamber, get your neck tension uniform, and then tweak your lube. Lube performance is absolutely vital to accuracy in a MG levergun.

Gear

Geargnasher,

So you seem to be in agreement with my Micro Groove idea. I was talking to few people about cannons. Let's take the Naval cannons for example. I've looked at a lot of cannon barrel and notice, in relation to the bore size, that rifling in them is basically Micro-Groove. I asked those I was talking to why. None came up with any ideas. I would like to know why they use such small groove in such huge bores.

[vzerone]

Yes sir, such threads exist. Example: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e-30XCB/page41

Many pages of specific loads, shot in several different rifles, complete with target and chrono data.

Bjorn look at the attached PDF of the CBA match records. I would categorize the XCB rifles in the heavy or unrestricted class. Although you fellows are doing okay you're no ways near being competitive with those CBA members. There is much work yet to be done.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/natio.../natrecord.pdf

[popper]

So what are the calibers and fps for those records?

[vzerone]

So what are the calibers and fps for those records?

I'm not a member so I don't get the Fouling Shot, but I believe it has the velocities and maybe calibers. I can't see why you can't use any caliber you want it's still a cast bullet and it's hard to get those kind of groups they are with any caliber. Maybe a CBA member here can answer those. I'll research in the mean time.

[Bjornb]

I'm not a member so I don't get the Fouling Shot, but I believe it has the velocities and maybe calibers. I can't see what you can't use any caliber you want it's still a cast bullet and it's hard to get those kind of groups they are with any caliber. Maybe a CBA member here can answer those. I'll research in the mean time.

Cousin Vinny, I'm a dues paying CBA member so I get The Fouling Shot. In the latest issue, among about 100 entrants in various matches, there were exactly 3 rifles entered in Unrestricted Rifle (above 14 lbs.), where my bench rifles would be located.

They were as follows:
Remington 700 in 300 Savage, velocity shot was 2100 fps. est.
Savage Target in 30BR, velocity est. 1950
Savage Target in 6PPC, velocity est. 2100

So as we can see, these rifles are not Mauser actions which were "specified" for the XCB project-

Furthermore, to comment on something your cousin Joseph A. has been trying to ram home for a very long time: The groups shot were always on the ragged edge. I never saw a point in just finding an accurate load and then quitting. All my range sessions continued until the groups fell apart; that was the purpose of shooting in the first place! Some of my best groups were shot with Unique, Varget and H335 at pedestrian speeds, but there was no point in highlighting such groups. XCB was supposed to be speed AND accuracy, not just one of the two.

Oh, and tell your cousin that the throat erosion of my barrel was more than likely caused by shooting large amounts of military cannon powder. Not linotype, which by the way is the preferred alloy of the CBA competition shooters.

The XCB was never meant to be a pure accuracy cartridge. It holds too much powder for that. That's what the 30BR is for; it holds about 30 grains 4198 in a full case which makes it very balanced for what it was developed for. The 30XCB gives a good balance of accuracy and speed.

[Bjornb]

provided the noise level in the peanut gallery remains as low as it has recently become.

Gear

We'll have to bring that noise back up to a dull roar........don't forget: the peanut gallery is where the shooting happens!!

[vzerone]

So what are the calibers and fps for those records?

I'm not a member so I don't get the Fouling Shot, but I believe it has the velocities and maybe calibers. I can't see what you can't use any caliber you want it's still a cast bullet and it's hard to get those kind of groups they are with any caliber. Maybe a CBA member here can answer those. I'll research in the mean time.

Bjorn sir you brought it. Here's a link to my cousins bore scoping of his AR10 7.62 NATO using strictly cannon powders, specifically 867. The bullet alloy was 50/50 water dropped no extra tin added. The number of rounds were approaching 10,000 give or take a few and some where a box or two of jacketed. Notice the gas port hole, although corroded, doesn't show the typical "tear drop" shape you normally see. The throat is in very fine shape. So that story about shooting cannon powders is a myth and we know who perpetrated that don't we. Your wear was from shooting Linotype which my cousin told you about and you still continue to use that to this day.

http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/foru...my-ar10-barrel

Next up you and your companion 30XCB shooter, play that you all are really nice guys and like to see targets and data plus chronograph readings, ignored and continue to ignore my cousin's shooting of that same AR10 with the LEE 130 grain cast bullet of 50/50 alloy water dropped from a production barrel for Arma-Lite 20 inches long and with a 10 twist of over 3100 fps into 1 inch groups consistently. They were five shot groups with some of the four into nearly 1/2 inch. That sir far exceed anything that you and your 30XCB friends have done.

So may we just continue with what will help the members here into getting their standard (or non standard) rifles shooting and not have a pissing match?

[CHeatermk3]

The national records are archived on the cast bullet assn's website, http://castbulletassoc.org/

To find out what was used to set any particular record you need to go to the technical data sheets which are displayed in the match results pages which are grouped by Club and dates in a separate section of the website.
Not all matches will have group and score competitions it's pretty much up to the individual clubs to decide what will be shot at a particular match.

You can find the 2015 match results here:

http://castbulletassoc.org/match2015.shtml

[Blammer]

I think this whole endeavor is quite interesting.

I have not been able to get jacketed bullets to shoot at a higher velocity than "normal" with out problems, such as accuracy, excessive copper fouling, bullets coming apart, etc....

to get cast bullets to do that, that will be quite the feat.

[Blammer]

My attempt at high velocity was by accident. I couldn't get my 35 whelen to group well. I didn't know how fast I was pushing them at the time. I tried bunches of stuff. Finally I hardened my bullets a little and that did the trick. For me high velocity is 2500 fps with a 200gr bullet in my 35 whelen.

[vzerone]

My attempt at high velocity was by accident. I couldn't get my 35 whelen to group well. I didn't know how fast I was pushing them at the time. I tried bunches of stuff. Finally I hardened my bullets a little and that did the trick. For me high velocity is 2500 fps with a 200gr bullet in my 35 whelen.

I'd consider that HV. You're in a caliber where more HV is going to hurt your shoulder. What you have there is one heck of a cast hunting load, probably little bit too much. The 35 Whelen is a great round and I also like the 358 Winchester. What alloy did you end up with?

[Hannibal]

I am reminded of a song by Mr. Stevie Wonder

"When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer
Superstition ain't the way . . . "

I can not post groups to support Bjornb's groups. Neither can I post groups to contradict Bjornb's groups.

I don't have to. The man posted EVERYTHING. Equipment. Conditions. Bullet. Charge. Case prep. Velocity. Date. Time. And if you follow his lead, and can shoot straight, there is NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THE RESULTS YOU SEE WILL MATCH.

He demonstrated it over, and over, and over again. With all the details for anyone to challenge. Over, and over, and over again. What did we hear in response? Chirping crickets.

If anyone can demonstrate anything CLOSE to this documentation with a factory rifle, and not just a singular event, then please point this information out, for I guess I missed it.

Another 'Peanut' will now turn away from the 'Stump".

[Blammer]

I wound up with my regular WW alloy just water dropped for a tad bit harder.

If I had to guess at the specific alloy I'd say I started with 96/2/2 then added WW's to fill up the pot. real scientific like, I know...