How many grains of BP in a 45-70 case?

[KenH]

Hello all - the title pretty says it all. How many grains of Goex FFg would normally one expect to fit in a Starline brass 45-70 case? Just loose filled, as it dipped? I only get almost 60 grains - does this sound correct? Not compressed, just lightly filled to the brim. That's the same amount I get in my 50-70 Starline brass case also. I was really expecting more - maybe 70 grains? What's normal - can "normal" be used?

I've read using a drop tube well over 70 grains can be compressed in a 45-70 case.

Thanks for any info.

Ken H>

[country gent]

Several things factor into this. A casefull of powder may compress just right under some bullets but be to much compression under others. How deep the bullet your using seats into the case makes a big diffrence. The type of powder is also going to have an effect. I believe my load with 2f goes in 45-70 was around 63 grns with the 510 grn lyman 457125 bullets, with the seating depth for my pedersoli sharps. Finding the compression level and wad the rifle wants is the trick here to accurate loads.

[Don McDowell]

If you're shooting regular Goex 2f, you'll want to weigh out the 70 grs, and while holding the pan above the powder funnel slowly pour that charge into the case. Then put what ever wad you're using on top of the powder and compress enough that the bullet will firmly touch the wad when fully seated.

[rfd]

case load volume also is dependent on the brass manufacturer and whether sized or fire formed.

[KenH]

Country Gent - That's about what I would get if I did a full compress load - 63 grains so I guess I'm pretty much on track.

I can see there are a LOTS of variables involved - thanks for the info.

Ken H>

[rfd]

unless yer shooting past 300 yards or so, i wouldn't be too concerned about the max amount of bp you can fit in the brass. i'd make up a dummy with the brass and bullet used, get the max oal, build a round with a bullet that either engraves or nearly engraves the rifling and tweak from there. using fire formed starline brass, swiss 1-1/2f, 459525m3 money bullet, i typically load 60.1 grains with about .020 light compression and that round engraves @ 3.015".

[KenH]

RFD, thanks for the info - I'm not by any means looking for max loads. My question was just what you answered, how much is a full case - with only mild you have 60.1 grains with Swiss. That gives me a good idea that my results are somewhat on track. Thanks.

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

A lot depends on if you're just wanting the gun to bang, or do you actually want to hit something, or shoot anything resembling a group?
If all you want to do is make the gun go bang, spend a ton of time trying to deal with the fouling, then go right on ahead with your 60 grs. of Goex 2f.That stuff likes compression and lots of it.
Folks can shoot 60 grs of Swiss and get away with it, as Swiss is smaller kernel sized and a different combination of ingredients, and it doesn't really care for compression.

[country gent]

The way I work up a load is simple start with type powder you want or have. Find the no compressed load with wad and your bullet and work up in 2-3 grn increments. When the 2 sweet spots are found test at mid point. Only changing the powder charge changes both the charge and the compression of the load. One this charge is found then seating depth wads and primers can be experimented with one at a time. A case can be sacrifices to make a means of measuring this hieght. Leave 1/4" of the case mouth cutting a square out 1/4-3/8" wide and 1/2" long 3/8" down from case mouth. cut a slot from case mouth to opening. This can be layed out easily and done with a dremil tool and cut off blade. This allows you to seat a bullet under tension into rifling and see the base allowing you to measure the hieght of powder charge wad stack up.

[BrentD]

FWIW, I was loading 82 grs of Swiss 1.5fg in my .45-70 cases with zero compression. But a new back of the same powder now requires about 0.1" of compression. I couldn't get much more than 83 grs in the case w/o an extension tube. Cases are Starline and the powder is drop-tubed.

[rfd]

yup, powder brand and size and batch are all important if ya wanna go more than just *bang*. and other stuff, too.

[MT Chambers]

W-w cases will allow quite a bit more powder than say Remington, not sure about Starline.

[El Bango]

The standard load using the old balloon cases was a 405 grain bullet backed by 70 grains of black powder. I believe they used a cartridge black powder and have never heard or read of ffg or fffg.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I load 62 gr of Goex FFg in .45-70 in my Sharps with the 405 gr boolit and shoot out to 500 yards with it. I live in a land of trees and hills so 500 yards is the maximum distance my local range offers.

[oldred]

I don't really claim to have the experience that some here have and thus can not get too technical but I would like to comment on my observations about little/no compression vs heavy compression. I agree whole-heartedly with Don's statement on compression and fouling, using Goex FFG and starting with little to no compression fouling was bad to say the least but being inexperienced with BPCR loading I just accepted this as "normal" for BP. After refining my technique and experimenting with compressed max charges I was very much surprised (actually delighted!) at the decease in fouling problems since I wasn't even expecting that. Of course compression did not eliminate fouling but it did indeed make a profound difference in shot-to-shot fouling management procedures, basically it went from actually being an annoying problem to simply being just part of the process and no longer a problem at all, the improvement in grouping however was the best part of all!

[KenH]

Thanks for all the comments folks - I wasn't trying to work up a load to shoot. I knew the 45-70 round was named because it was 45 caliber, and held 70 grains of black - back then. My case only held around 60 and was wondering what the deal was. I think El Bango has the right info, those old cases were balloon cases which gave a LOTS (well, some more) room in the case which allowed 70 grains to fit easier.

I'm just now getting a scope setup on my rifles so I can tell anything about accuracy - my old eyes just don't see those iron sights very good. I'm thinking about rebarreling one of my old Rolling Blocks to 45-70 to go along with the old trapdoor 45-70 I've got. I'm having almost as much fun working on these guns as actually shooting them!

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

I have no idea how old you are ,but I am always somewhat tickled when I read about some one with old eyes that can shoot irons, especially when I am setting here at the NRA BPTR nationals and ther are only about 4 people who aren't on the board a seniors, some are 70 or over, and ar able to shoot X rings at 1000 yds...

[hydraulic]

I have several old .45-70 balloon head empties that I picked up at the site of old Fort Custer near Hardin Montana. Most of them were flattened and beat up but I have a couple that are still OK. I filled them with Elephant 2F, several years ago, and compared them to modern WW cases. I didn't weigh the powder, just eyeballed them, and I couldn't tell that there was any difference in the capacity of the cases. Doc Carlson, black powder editor of Gun Digest, told me that he had torn down one of the old Frankford Arsenal cartridges and said the powder was compressed so hard that he had to dig it out with a screwdriver. 70grs compressed is the proper load.

[KenH]

Oh, I'm an old retired person - I'm 68, 69 my next birthday and my eyes just are not what they should be. While i can see "ok" at a distance, up close I need a bit of help. I can look over the iron sights and see target just fine, but the iron sights are just a blur.


The above is a cutaway of a balloon head 44-40 case, and it's my understanding the 45-70 and other brass BPCR of the time were all the same type balloon cases. Just looking it "looks like" there would be more room. Compressing BP sure makes sense - been shooting muzzle loads for many years and they are ALWAYS a compressed powder load. You don't just "push" the bullet to seat it to powder, you bounce the ramrod a couple of times to be sure it's "seated" good.

Interesting your actual ballow head brass didn't hold any more BP than modern brass.... maybe the case walls are thicker taking up the extra space.

Thanks again to all for comments and sharing info.

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

Well fact is it is just not that hard to from 70 or more grs of 2f black powder into a 45 70 case from any of the modern manufactures. During the shooting season there are 1000's of rounds sent down range by that charge on any given weekend.