Marlin accuracy using cast help

[thumbs]

I would appreciate all the help I can get. I have a 1894 Marlin built in 1999. It doesn't have micro grove stamped on the barrel and am told it's uses Ballard rifling. I do not cast for it but buy cast bullets for it. The hardness of the bullets is said to be 20 to 22. The bullets are sized and lubed when I get them.

I have slugged the barrel and it comes out to be .430-.431. I have tried .430 and .431 240 grain bullets with no success accuracy wise. At fifty yards I probably wouldn't even hit a deer let along provide a humane shot. At 25 yards it shoots a pattern not a group. Now I did try some Berry's rnfp plated bullets that measured .429 and got one inch groups at fifty yards, peep site. I haven't even tried fifty yards with the cast.

When I started with the cast I was using light loads in the 900fps range. Both rifle and Redhawks leaded badly. I boosted the charge to 1250 or so and the leading went away but terrible accuracy. This is with both .430 and .431 bullets. I have been using 700x, 800x, auto comp, Hp 38. These may be a bit fast but it is all I have. The Redhawk seems to shoot with fine accuracy the Marlin, not so much. I have not worked on these loads at all. Just trying to get something that appears to warrant more work. Nothing so far shoots except the plated again sized at .429.

I have some 200gr. .433 cast on the way to try.

I'm sure the rifle will shoot well once I find what it wants. Any ideas. I have som 296 and could try it but really don't want to run max loads all the time. Ultimately I would like to be able to adjust my loads according to the need.

thanks for the help

Gary

[runfiverun]

I'd wait till the bigger-shorter boolits get there before I made a decision.
10 or so grs of the 800-x should be pushing things plenty fast.

those berrys are copper plated soft lead [btw] they are probably bumping up and filling the rifling which those stupid hard boolits won't do.

[swamp]

I would go to a .432-.433 size. I prefer to be .001-.002 over grove diameter. Look in the bore. It will show what your rifling is.

The problem with buying cast is the limited size selection.

I think the .433 might help. Start with a start load and up it a little at a time till your accuracy is good. Max loads are not always the most accurate, or fun to shoot.

Good luck,
swamp

[thumbs]

Thanks guys. Yea I really don't want as stout a load as I have been trying. Yeah the local manufacturer of the cast said it may take a hotter load to expand the lead to fill the rifling. It did take care of the leading but not the accuracy. I was told for some reason the plated bullets can be undersize and still shoot well. Like you say I guess they are so soft they they fatten up when fired.
I would rather shoot the cast but if push comes to shove I really don't have a problem with plated.
How about the powder do you think that may be a problem or should they work fine?
One last question (for now) LOL
When going from plated to cast and back again do all I need to do is a good cleaning or does it really make much difference. I was thinking keeping my shooting one or the other then cleaning the rifle and switching to the other. Still don't know what is going to be the best to shoot as of yet and will be testing both.

[knifemaker]

My Marlin 1894 44 mag. was also running a .4315 groove dia. and would not shoot accurate groups with any cast bullets smaller then .433. To get good accuracy I bought a custom sizing die that sized to .433 and used white label 2500+ lube. Had good groups and no leading at 100 yards. I used clip on wheel weights at 11-12 BN with 2% tin added for good fill out in the mould. Max load of 2400 or 296 for my hunting load.

[thumbs]

Its kinda hard to believe but around here wheel weights have pretty much dried up. I think they are all zink now. To buy the lead is to expensive that's why I am just buying the bullets. I was thinking about bumping the bullets up then sizing them down but again that could get expensive.

[runfiverun]

I have switched back and forth between the two plenty of times.
you just need to be aware that copper [layered in the barrel] can strip lead and cause issues.
I shoot cast first and get a good lube layer in the barrel, and if the barrel isn't too rough or pitted it seems to cause no issues.


ww's have pretty much dried up everywhere.
many are recycling range scrap, or buying at the scrap yards.

[TCFAN]

My Marlin Cowboy 44 mag. has the Ballard rifling. I have never slugged the barrel.I started with .429 cast boolits and worked my way up in diameter till I got accurate results at the velocity I wanted.What i ended up with was a custom mold from Accurate that cast a .434 dia 230 grain gas check boolit cast from air cooled WW. I size theses boolts to .433 and lube with White Label BAC lube.

My load for this boolit is 10 grains of Unique powder.This gives me the accuracy and all the recoil that I want and shoots like a heavy loaded 44-40.This load should work on any deer in the Missouri Ozarks at 100 yards or less......................Terry

[MT Chambers]

Some will say that the 1-38" twist is at fault and you should use only the lighter .44 bullets, although that has not been my experience......maybe try a gc 200 grainer.

[thumbs]

Some will say that the 1-38" twist is at fault and you should use only the lighter .44 bullets, although that has not been my experience......maybe try a gc 200 grainer.

Could be... Last time I shot the plated 240gr she shot fine. I loaded a few of the same load to take out next time. We will see what happens. I also 200gr cast ordered. Should be in by the end of the week.

[foxtrapper]

Had the same problem years ago with my marlin 1894p. I went to this bullet sized.432 and never looked back.

Data Developed Using Beartooth Bullets .432”-250gWFNGCWinchester Large Pistol Primers/Remington Brass/C.O.L. 1.592”Chronographed 12 feet from muzzle. Groups fired from bench at 50 yds.Test Gun: Rossi Model 92 20” Barrel Factory Sights
Powder	Grains	Velocity	ES	SD	Group
Blue Dot	15.0	1555	54.91	27.67	1.68”
W231	10.7	1462	7.85	4.12	0.64”
IMR 800X	12.1	1498	N/A	N/A	1.28”
Universal	9.1	1467	16.68	9.23	1.11”
H4227	24.0	1951	37.77	26.87	1.21”
Unique	12.0	1436	8.22	3.26	1.02”
2400	17.5	1529	N/A	N/A	N/A
H110	24.0	1926

[thumbs]

Well I hope your right. I just tried the copper plated bullets that I thought shot well last year. They were out of the same box. Ok I shot them at 50 yards and they shot a hole lot better than the cast @ 25 yards but sill not very good. I shot two different manufacturers with pretty close to the same results.
I am supposed to get some .433 200 gr in the mail tomorrow. I'll see what happens. After that Idono.

[edler7]

Mine likes a 270 grn. gas checked cast sized to .433. Try some IMR 4227 powder if you can find it.

[thumbs]

I am trying not to have to cast. I know that may be not be popular here but I would rather not. In my defense I do cast for all my black powder but I don't have access to the alloy. The ones I shot today were 240's copper plated with a lower charge of 700x. They were at about 1050fps. Even with the "groups" being better than last time out I did have a few flyers I don't have a clue where they went. I'm really surprised this thing is so picky. It's like the sights move from round to round. They don't appear to but that the kind of "groups" I am getting. I am using a Marbles tang sight and it lines up with the original rear sight. Everything seems to stay lined up.

I called the LGS a couple of days ago and they did have a couple of pounds of 4227.

[edler7]

A lot of guys over at marlinowners swear by Winchester white box ammo in their 1894s. Most also report good groups with plain old Hornady XTP bullets. I tried both, they worked fairly well but we're a little pricey for my taste. My Marlin slugged at .4315 but shot those .429 XTPs fairly well- never did figure that one out. I wound up buying a gas check mold and custom sizer from Buckshot here on Castboolits, cast with wheel weights and a dab of tin and haven't looked back.

One fellow over at marlinowners made the comment IMR 4227 was a well kept secret for the 1894 in 44 mag...I think he knew what he was talking about.

[knifemaker]

Thumbs, if I remember right, there is a cast bullet maker that has different size dia. bullets for sale for guys like you that need a larger dia. cast bullet and do not cast your own. Hopefully someone on here will be able to provide you the name of the outfit as it has been long enough I can not recall the name of the cast bullet maker. I do know that you will probably need a .432 or .433 bullet in your 1894 as many report this is the size that will increase the accuracy of those rifles due to the larger groove dia.

[thumbs]

Thanks guys I know Dardas makes .433 200gr bullets. I am hoping they will be here tomorrow. I am also noticing as I read as much as I can that many people are using quite a bit heavier than the 240r I am trying. I am hoping this is something that can be worked out in my rifle. I would like to try heavier bullets in this diameter if I could find a caster that makes them.

Yeah the cost of store bought is pretty steep. The other problem is trying to find them.

[edler7]

Marlins are considered "generous" in their bores, but they are right on spec. The trouble is, there is one spec for pistols (.429) and another for rifles (.431). The problems with lead start when most of what is available is sized for pistols...unless you cast.

[thumbs]

Yeah that is the problem. I even went to plated bullets I thought shot well last year and they were all over the place also.