Does anyone PC for accuracy?

[Yodogsandman]

10sandxs, Welcome to the site! Thanks for your insight!

[Dragonheart]

I haven't gotten into powder coating rifle bullets mainly because I don't shoot that much rifle and when I do I already have developed extreamly accurate loads, but one day I will be casting some for my M-1 Carbine and my 7.63x39, both low velocity short range loads. However I do quest for accuracy in my handguns.

Attached is a photo of a recent group fired from my Ransom Rest. This is just one example I have using HP-38 powder and I have a number of tests using alternate powders delivering consistent groups under 2”. The bullet in this test is a powder coated 230 grain round nose from a Saeco #357 mold. This is my standard bullet of choice as it feeds 100%. When I start testing powder coated semi wad cutter designs I expect the groups to improve. As you can see from the photo this is a 1.6”, 5 shot group at 25 yards”. A 2”, 45 ACP group at 25 yards is considered by most to be outstanding and a 1-1/2” group is target quality from a high dollar custom gun.

I do plan to do a PC vs Lube test in the future just for comparison, but for me with this kind of accuracy, I will never go back to the sticky, smoking mess that gums up your dies and will not feed in a bullet feeder.

Additionally, a powder coated bullet leaves a clean barrel after every shot so accuracy does not diminish like a lubed bullet, which deposits small amounts of lead. Luber's ( I used to be one) will dispute this and tell you they have no leading, but I promise a close inspection of their barrels will tell a different story.

Also powder coated bullets are the coolest looking bullets on the range? (LOL)

[xacex]

for me PC bullets are for developing the skills necessary to get the full benefit of those pricey more accurate bullets

This is about where I am at. I have got accuracy as good as bulk jacketed bullets, but not premium. I just got the 6.5 Grendel mold, and will try to push the boundary of what accuracy is with powder coat. The 6.5 Grendel rifle I have now will shoot teens for 5 shots multiple times at 50 yards, and .5" groups at 100 yards consecutively with an untrained shooter. If I can maintain sub moa 5 shot groups for 3 or more groups I will call it a success. These will be shot at jacketed velocity.

[Case Stuffer]

we have only been doing PC'ed bullets for about a year.. what discoveries will we find as more and more experiment ???

A few points I would like answers to are:

Does the alloy / hardness of the Boolit matter ? Yes PC stops leading with softer alloys but does it prevent striping , gas cutting etc? Does it really provide a better gas seal or does it prevent the Boolit base from expanding and thus providing a great seal?

I believe it would be helpful if posted PC Boolit results included Boolit alloy hardness and even approx. allox. content if known , approx. FPS , how same alloy Boolits with similiar loads performed with other lubes.

For many years I shot .38 Special 185 gr. WC target loads in PPC and .45ACP 210 gr. ( SWC) just hot enough to make major in IPSC matches. Aaccuracy was better than my shooting ability and I ,managed to bring home my fair amount of plaques and trophies. Leading was minor , I used alloy with approx. 17 Bhn which was harder than needed but I sold boolits and reloads and that is what customers expected. Clip on wheel weights were 20 cents a pound by the barrel full, Lino , Mono, Intertype were around 50 cents a pound delivered so liquid silver cost was no really an issue. I used NRA and several home brewed hard lubes. I was a sideline Bee keeper so had plenty of bees wax. I used Lee Alox tumble lube and purchased it by the gallon direct from Lee.

About a month ago I started powder coating , powder by the pound hi gloss blk. and next Smoke's Hi gloss clear. First time I have shot Boolits with zero leading in a 9mm. FPS should be approx. 1,000 FPS perhaps a bit less.My alloy is Saeco 7 to 8 , COWW , Range lead whatever I can find on line at decent prices and enough Lino to get hardness up to this range and have enough tin to cast well. Most times approx. 75% purchased lead ingots and 15-25% Lino.

[robertbank]

A few points I would like answers to are:

Does the alloy / hardness of the Boolit matter ? Yes PC stops leading with softer alloys but does it prevent striping , gas cutting etc? Does it really provide a better gas seal or does it prevent the Boolit base from expanding and thus providing a great seal?

There are only a few reasons why you get leading . Bullet stripping and gas cutting are the two primary ones, You are not getting leading, ergo PCing must be preventing either one of the two. Better? It seems to me it either does or it does not. If PCing seals the bullet in the bore I am not sure if, once it is sealed it can get a better seal. I have shot 9MM, a high pressure round and 38spl, a low pressure round using wheel weight metal. By baking the bullets like we do and then air cooling them we are in effect annealing the lead so any hardness the lead may have had is going to be reduced by the process. It has had no affect on the results I have experienced. Neither cartridge you quote requires a hard alloy as both the 38spl and the 45 LC are low pressure rounds. I would think buying Lino for either would be a total waste of money as both originally were commercially loaded with pure lead bullets.

Unless I experience major problems I do not seek out the alloy hardness of my bullets. I know some do and others may have the answer to your alloy hardness question. When I get a process that works I then get back to practicing my shooting. I don't spend a lot of time seeking out why it works. Just me.

Take Care

Bob

[popper]

CaseStuffer - I'm shooting 9mm 135gr 8/2 isocore/Pb with WST and no leading and accuracy, HiTek coated. I know, not PC but I do both, HiTek is easier unless I need to heat treat ( still testing that). Est. 11 BHN. Same alloy with 144gr PB in 300 BO shoots better than me, 1750 fps. Same results in 308W @ 2400.
For me, I change the question, will coating allow the accuracy I desire - so far, definite YES. When I become capable to shoot 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups consistently, I'll worry about changing to lubes.
Did I mention that I've not seen a first/cold shot flyer - 30F to 100F? Without cleaning the barrel between range trips. I've been coating for 3 years.

[robertbank]

popper you are a man after my own heart. If I could shoot better I am sure the coatings would shoot better too!

Take Care

Bob

[Case Stuffer]

Neither cartridge you quote requires a hard alloy as both the 38spl and the 45 LC are low pressure rounds. I would think buying Lino for either would be a total waste of money as both originally were commercially loaded with pure lead bullets.

The 38 Spec. and 45 ACP referenced was many years ago and I mentioned I sold Boolits and remanufactured ammo and customers ewanted hard Bollis and lead / alloys were cheap back in the late 70's to mid 80's.

Snip from my OP:

For many years I shot .38 Special 185 gr. WC target loads in PPC and .45ACP 210 gr. ( SWC) just hot enough to make major in IPSC matches. Aaccuracy was better than my shooting ability and I ,managed to bring home my fair amount of plaques and trophies. Leading was minor , I used alloy with approx. 17 Bhn which was harder than needed but I sold boolits and reloads and that is what customers expected. Clip on wheel weights were 20 cents a pound by the barrel full, Lino , Mono, Intertype were around 50 cents a pound delivered so liquid silver cost was no really an issue. I used NRA and several home brewed hard lubes. I was a sideline Bee keeper so had plenty of bees wax. I used Lee Alox tumble lube and purchased it by the gallon direct from Le

e.


Currently

About a month ago I started powder coating , powder by the pound hi gloss blk. and next Smoke's Hi gloss clear. First time I have shot Boolits with zero leading in a 9mm. FPS should be approx. 1,000 FPS perhaps a bit less.My alloy is Saeco 7 to 8 , COWW , Range lead whatever I can find on line at decent prices and enough Lino to get hardness up to this range and have enough tin to cast well. Most times approx. 75% purchased lead ingots and 15-25% Lino.


My reference to 38 and 45ACP ow pressure .low velocity loads was to point out they were easy ones and 9 mm not so easy ,at least not for all of us.


Dead soft lead swaged 38 WC leaded very badly even at 800 FPS and soft lead SWC or flat nose in a 45 ACP deformed on the feed ramp and hat runied accuracy at 50 yard or more which was often a distance used in some stages of IPSC back then and sometimes we shot movers at that range.


25% Lino added to COWW or retrived range lead adds gives 1% tin and 3% Antimony and adds next to no cost per Boolit in reality.

$1.50 per pound for misc lead from web sources. $1.50 / 55 Bollits per pound =$0.027ea.


At 25% Lino at $3 per pound.


75 pound lead @ 1.5 = $112.50
25 pound Lino @ $3 per pound = $75

$187.50 / 5,500=$0.034 each.

[robertbank]

Not sure what you are trying to say. WW alloy is all I ever use and it works fine. You want to use lino fill your boots.

Bob

[Case Stuffer]

Glad WW works fine for you. Most areas COWW of decent alloy are getting harder to find. I am unable to do smelting due to age and physical limitations so have to depend on what is available from others. I do not like using $3 a pound Lino but as I pointed out it only adds $.007 ( 7/10 of one cent) to a 125 gr. Boolit as I use 25% or less.

[robertbank]

Glad WW works fine for you. Most areas COWW of decent alloy are getting harder to find. I am unable to do smelting due to age and physical limitations so have to depend on what is available from others. I do not like using $3 a pound Lino but as I pointed out it only adds $.007 ( 7/10 of one cent) to a $125 gr. Boolit as I use 25% or less.

I hear you. The ageing process is not for the weak of heart. The Golden years are turning into Rust years if my former Greek God body is any indication of the process. Well Greek God might be stretching it a bit. We are still getting decent WW;s up here but they are supposed to be banned and phased out but there seems to be lots still around. It won't be long though before they are a thing of the past. Reminds me to send a thank-you card to the California State Legislature or whomever it was that got on the "ban lead WW bandwagon".

Take Care

Bob

[45r]

I was impressed with 3/4 inch at 50 with the Noe 311247 but am real happy with under half inch bug hole type groups with the Noe 311365 at 55 yards in my 300BLK AR from AA.
Now I'm wondering what mold to get for super-sonic.
What is the best mold for supers.
I'm really liking PC for 300BLK.
I've got good results coating the lyman 358665 with and without the BB also.

[robertbank]

Boat tails have less wobble when the bullet falls below the sound barrier if that makes a difference.

Bob

[BulletFactory]

For long shots in your rifle, I believe you'd fare better with a lubed boolit. You don't vary the center of gravity and concentricity as much when you fill a symmetrical groove (or three) and push that through a sizer of known diameter so that you know that the lube is perfectly distributed around the boolit and evenly. There is just not a good way to spray on a coating and keep everything perfectly distributed when it is done by a human and usually outdoors.

It looks good, is very clean during loading and shooting in my 6-guns though! It doesn't appreciably vary the path of my 250gr .45 slug going 8-900 fps.

Coat, then size. Won't solve all the problems, but it narrows them down a bit.

I got a little better accuracy out of the .40 with lube, but to get away from the lube mess, and considering that I shoot at steel mostly, and considering that I have a more lead safe bullet, I'll stick with PC.

[popper]

Finally got to chrony the 308W 24" barrel. 31-165C Red HF PC. 42gr 4895 avg = 2634, ES= 42. 40.5gr 4895 avg = 2598, ES - 45. Wasn't shooting for accuracy, just to make sure I didn't kill the chrony, 50 yds with just the bipod.
Attachment 141824
40SW practice 20 rnds testing, the rest were single handed practice, 7 yds. HiTek green coated.
Attachment 141826
edit: processing the 308 brass I found I had used 1 FC & 1 Win case, both had little neck tension when expanding. I'm assuming the high reading was from setback, recalculated the 42 gr. string, ES = 15! Oh, tossed out the 2789 fps shot (no mistake). Looking at hole size (nose slump?) I think it's the one in the bull. 13 shots & 12 apparent holes - passthrough one one.

[45r]

Shot my 300BLK with some Noe 311414 boolits using RE-7 and AA1680 at 55 yards.
1/2 inch with 18 grains RE-7(compressed load).
3/4 inch with 18.4 grains 1680.
RE-7 still seems to be the most accurate powder for cast boolits.
1680 gave better velocity.
Both burned clean and barrel looked bright(hand-lapped).
It shoots 1 inch at 100 using speer 125 TNT's with win 296.
1680 shot close to the same POI as the 125 TNT.
RE-7 shot lower so will use 1680.
PC'ed boolits are all I'll use for 300BLK AR from now on.
Accuracy is good to me.

[BulletFactory]

Has anyone done an accuracy test for PC to determine if the PC color, or brand affects accuracy?


I have been wondering if the white vs red HF stuff would yield a different result, one from the other. Also, if you had say, red HF, and red no bs brand, if the more expensive powders would outperform the chinese junk HF is so well known for.

[1911KY]

I have yet to do my benchrest testing, but my PC'd bullets do pretty well offhand. These are all 200 gr SWC with 4.1 gr of WST.

10 yds


15 yds one 3" grp and one 2.93" grp with a flyer



15 yds 2.2" grp with a flyer and 2.8" grp

[popper]

308W @100, Started trying the bipod then went & got the stand & bags. 2630 load is more accurate than the 2590. Reset the scope zero durning the strings. Same loads I chronyd last week. No multiple 10 shot groups but the difference is apparent. My shooting is getting a little better. I dumped some filler out of the rear bag which made some difference also.
Attachment 142287
BO did better with straight Isocore & H110, over 1800.
H.T'd gold 1035 didn't even get on paper from the 308W. Got to figure that one out, but no leading.

[robertbank]

What bullet is that Popper. No offense but with a scope I would expect more at 100 yards.

Bob