303 british resizing problem.

[fred2892]

You must be very lucky then. I see it two or three times a year on average at my local range. Last time for me personally was last year with a piece of HXP brass. Mind you, .303 is the most common milsurp here and every range date will have anything up to a dozen 303s on the firing line each popping off at least 100 rounds per session, so the law of averages say its going to happen again soon.

Just dug these out of my range bag

[1Shirt]

They are all different! Mine is a cobbled together rifle, akin to the moose who was made on the 8th day from left over parts. It is about as ugly as home made snot. I bought at a gun show about two years ago from a guy who was walking around with it, asking 150.00. I looked it over, offered him 100.00, and we settled on 115.00. It shoots .315's, of just about any weight, into 3-4" at 100. For an ugly old battle rifle, to me that is fully satisfactory. Once in awhile I get a luck group of about 2". I nearly full length size (1 turn back out of the sizing die) about every 6-7 loadings. The rest of the time I neck size with a Lee Collet sizer.

1Shirt!

[3006guns]

Nothing to do with the OP's original subject, but about those bolt heads.......

I had an aquaintence who made Hollywood movies and considered himself quite the director. He mentioned a rifle that got ruined after his last cinematic effort and I offered to look at it. He brought in a 1918 Enfield MkIII* with a bolt that wouldn't close, stated that the rifle was junk and offered it to me for fifty bucks. I bought it, went out to my car, removed the bolt, screwed the bolt head home, looked at a good bore and replaced the bolt. My son has that rifle now and it shoots lead just fine.

Sometimes the good lord smiles on us commoners.......

[milrifle]

I bought a No 1 Mk 3 and when comparing fired cases to my No 4 Mk 1, there was a significant difference in length from case head to shoulder and angle of shoulder. The guy I got it from said he had checked the head space and it was OK. I wondered if he had lied to me. I bought a field gauge and the rifle does indeed pass that test. I'm thinking the chamber is just long. At any rate, I bought some O-rings to put under the rim and fired a bunch of factory rounds in it and intend to neck size only and let them headspace off the shoulder. Just have to keep the brass separate between the two rifles.

[leebuilder]

In my observations more 303 rifles suffer from " elongated chambers " and not bad headspace. Many rifles rejected at the military armory i would visit had been rejected for elongated chambers. The worst headspace i have encountered was on P14s and lee enfield with mismatched bolts, thats on a military .076" reject gauge.
be safe, have a broken shell extractor in your range bag!!

[OptimusPanda]

Here's one last update. I was finally able to get those two loaded stripper clips to the range today. They shot great. Maybe and inch and a half at 25 yards, not long range I know but atleast I could actually shoot them all day. They did shoot 3" high though, which does make sense as they're probably going half the speed of normal 303 and my understanding was that slower bullets of the same weight in the same gun tended to shoot higher on paper.

[Multigunner]

Broken cases were more common during WW1 before they began manufacturing cases sturdy enough for use in automatic weapons.
Theres a list of manufacturers of suspect cases on one of the ammo collector sites. The list is of headstamps of dud ammunition that should be discarded rather than re primed and processed for use in training. They actually salvaged hundreds of thousands of rounds in this manner, but in the end it was just too much effort to save a few pounds sterling in components.
The suspect cases often broke up at the shoulder during the resizing process or when bullets were being reseated.

When MGs or rifles became worn occasionally a case would separate on first firing.

[PAT303]

Simply bumping the neck up with a .32 or .33 cal button and then sizing back in a normal .303 die until you get a light ''crush'' fit when closing the bolt and then fire form with a squib load,neck size only from then on will solve all these case seperations.If you have an oversize chamber,not head space,oversize chamber simply get a smith to set the barrel back one thread,all your problems fixed. Pat

[303Guy]

It is indeed that simple but is it cost effective? I mean some of us have really budget rifles (which is why they have headspace issues). Well, speaking for myself anyway.

My trick is load lighter than normal as in medium cast loads and to lube the cases with case lube (about the same amount as used for case sizing) and shoot them. The lube allows the case head to move back and the shoulder forward without stretching the case at the web. Cases do not elongate this way or if they do the stretching is spread over the length of the case. And no, it will not overload the bolt face. That's why a medium cast load is used. It has to be be stiff enough to push out the shoulder though.

I had a rifle that needed this treatment as the bolt had set back in the lug recesses and it had a Martini Henry barrel that didn't clock right so it was about half a thread loose. It still shot accurately though. Go figure!

[PAT303]

Whats 100 303 cases worth?,a sizing button or Lee tapered expander stem which ever you need is worth a few dollars,setting the barrel back a turn is $100 if it's really bad,headspace is not the issue,people keep that old wives tale alive,oversize chambers are the reason for blown out,lop sided or split cases. Pat

[303Guy]

Thankfully none of mine have extreme oversize chambers. Some do have the shoulder clearance. I used to get three firing from a new case in my tightest chamber rifle, that being my first Lee Enfield fitted with a No4 barrel. That was with full sizing. Even with partial sizing, cases didn't last that many firings. The cases and chamber were too dry. I stopped cleaning off the sizing lube and the problem went away. Accuracy improved too.

[leebuilder]

Thankfully none of mine have extreme oversize chambers. Some do have the shoulder clearance. I used to get three firing from a new case in my tightest chamber rifle, that being my first Lee Enfield fitted with a No4 barrel. That was with full sizing. Even with partial sizing, cases didn't last that many firings. The cases and chamber were too dry. I stopped cleaning off the sizing lube and the problem went away. Accuracy improved too.

I have the same issues with some rifles with the original chambers. I too have left the case lubed for firing, i assume the lube is centering the case and boolit hydrolicily in the chamber aiding in accuracy. I only partial size for my No 4 hunting rifle and only use S&B cases in her, the rest of my ammo is full lenght sized, just for universallity and only vary COL for a paticular rifle. I find this easier for me. I allways cull streched casings before resizing. Reloading the 303 can be a sack of rusty door knobs, with out of spec chambers, and bores, varying rim thicknesses and generous headspace, but once you figure out all the foybbles and and sifft through all the info and find what works for it is very rewarding, addictive and fun!!!!

Be safe

[303Guy]

I don't think there is any hydraulic effect with just a residue of lube. It does disappear on firing though although that may be an illusion. Case wall grip still takes place but any case stretch gets spread over the body length so the elastic limit doesn't get exceeded. The neck itself doesn't move in the chamber.

In the chaos of the past two years of my life I have lost track of which case fits which rifle so I will be starting from scratch again. I do have some nny cases which I will dedicate to one rifle. I'm just going to see which cases fit then load them and mark them for the rifle. I have some PMP cases which are thicker walled which I have dedicated to my short barrelled pig gun because of their smaller capacity and the fact that the patched boolits seat real snug in them with no sizing. I should try getting another batch of them.

The fact that lightly lubed cases seem to come out dryer makes me speculate that oiled cases (as in dripping or just wet with oil) actually injects atomized oil into the combustion chamber causing dieselling with the oxygen present and raising the chamber pressure. I'm not sure there is enough oxygen to make a difference but it is believed that oiling cartridges raises chamber pressure so who knows.

[leebuilder]

Hi 303guy my thoughts are with you today.

I read here before about hydrolic centering, i dont for fact if that is what is happening, i can only assume thats what is happening. Dieseling could be it too, never ever would of thought of that, if the lube burns it is making gases, and they are expanding. Been keeping my loaded cases free from lube since they attract alot of dust and lint, when i shot lubed cases i was still learning, clean cases are a must hunting up here. PMP is very good brass, mine is all berdan primed. I have been saving my nny/ppu cases for a rainy day. S&B is of low quality so no big deal if i lose them in the bogs.
I posted this pic before, no1mk3 barrel with dummy, this came from a cousins rifle and would not shoot. You can see it is baked. And the chamber is quite tight in apperance but over strected the brass on every shot

be well

[Mike H]

Some years ago,our rifle club shot a lot of Service Rifle matches,most were using .303 Lee Enfields with jacketed projectiles in their reloads,we didn't have the troubles that people here seem to have.Keeping the cases trimmed before they got too long and carefull use of the Full Length Sizer was all we did.Cases will stretch because of the back locking action,but they still last a long time
Mike.

[EDG]

Mike H
I suspect you are using heavier brass than the common Winchester and Remington brass produced in the US. The US brass is only about .450 to .452 in diameter at the head. The US brass is also thin so it swells easily at the junction of the solid head and case wall.

The same brass used in 6.5 Dutch Mannlicher chambers which are about .452 to .453 at the head works great.

[Multigunner]

In my observations more 303 rifles suffer from " elongated chambers " and not bad headspace. Many rifles rejected at the military armory i would visit had been rejected for elongated chambers.

According to Reynolds excessive torque used to clock in a barrel that had not been properly prefitted caused many No.4 chambers to elongate with formation of stress lines that often caused the shoulder area of the chamber to swell. They developed the breeching up washer system to avoid this while still allowing faster production.

[303Guy]

I suspect you are using heavier brass than the common Winchester and Remington brass produced in the US.

I'd suggest that commercial brass is all thinner than military brass. I have a number of commercial PMP cases (boxer primed but otherwise the same as military) and they are strong. I do not know how they compare with regards head separation as I don't have that problem anyway but I can see how they would be better. The case wall doesn't seem to expand as much and grip the chamber walls as much as the thinner cases. They would also have higher pressures than the regular commercial stuff. They are great for cast boolit application because of their smaller capacity and the fact that the necks don't expand as much (no sizing needed). I don't suppose one could import them into the US (or could you?) Shipping would cost as much as the cases but it's good brass.

[PAT303]

The only good 303 brass is PPU head stamp from Serbia. Pat

[303Guy]

Generally that would seem to be true but PMP brass is pretty good too (as far as I can tell). I have one dud PPU case that I keep out of curiosity - the rim hasn't properly formed. It would still work just fine though.