Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[robertbank]

Those of you that enjoy shooting the big bores are welcome to them. The arthritis in my wrists makes it too painful to even consider.
I tried a 44 mag a few years ago and 1 cylinder full was all I wanted and more than I needed.

There is wisdom in those words. I can understand the need the guide had for his 500. He is young, I am guessig in his early 30's, amd in great shape. Shooting at a life size bear target at 15 yards he could rapidly empty the 500. Think shooting full 357mag loads as fast as you can for the mortals among us to get an idea how fast he shot the gun. What impressed me most was the fact he shot about 100 rounds of practice that day. He told me he does it once ot twice each spring and fall.

I am just starting to get joint pain in a few fingers and nothing in my wrists but I have no desire to beat myself up with heavy duty 44mag or 45 Colt loads. I do carry my Ruger 45Colt in the bush and do so with 8.5 gr of Unique under my 260 gr LSWC bullets or my 1911 with 45-08 cartridges. That is enough for anything I am likely to run into at short range. They both partner a Mossberg 12 gauge loaded with slugs.

Take Care

Bob

[geargnasher]

Glad it didn't go across wrong. I just figure we all need to be outshooting ourselves, and not get offended if the guy next to us outshoots us. I figure if I get outshot, it gives me a goal to do better next time. And if I don't have any competition that beats me, then I am going to try to outdo myself next time. And you're right, it is psychological, more so than many would believe.

Lot of truth there.

Gear

[tazman]

I am just starting to get joint pain in a few fingers and nothing in my wrists but I have no desire to beat myself up with heavy duty 44mag or 45 Colt loads. I do carry my Ruger 45Colt in the bush and do so with 8.5 gr of Unique under my 260 gr LSWC bullets or my 1911 with 45-08 cartridges. That is enough for anything I am likely to run into at short range. They both partner a Mossberg 12 gauge loaded with slugs.

Take Care

Bob

I have arhtritis in my fingers and thumbs but for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me when I shoot. Just the wrists. As long as I stay at 357mag or less I'm fine.
The loads you carry are still quite potent. Not sure what all you might run into since I haven't been in your area. I certainly hope you never run into anything you would need more gun to discourage. It would probably be 15 feet tall with 12 inch fangs and weigh 3000 lbs..

[robertbank]

Well the biggest would be a Grizzly at short range but, while there are lots of them around here, they pretty much leave you alone. Mountain Lion aka Cougars and Black Bears are more of a concern with the latter, though timid can be a problem. Cougars have been on the rise around here of late and can be nasty when hungry. All would fall with the 12G/45 Colt loads. I don't practice with heavy loads in the Colt. The 45-08 cartridge is much like a heavy .357mag load and is pleasant to shoot. The slug gun is practiced with trap loads. Again having a problem with any of the three is quite rare. So is winning the lottery and I buy tickets for it so why not be armed.

All the best

Bob

[tazman]

I took the K38 to the range today with the light loaded SWC and WFN I made up yesterday. By the end of the session I was getting a proper trigger squeeze and not knowing exactly when the gun would fire. This is really the first time I have been able to do that.
I was setting my grip so the gun was supported but not gripped any tighter than needed. It seemed to relax me and make it easier for me to do the squeeze.
Groups were a little tighter. I just need to get steadier on my hold. That will take time and practice.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I am heading in the right direction with this.

[M-Tecs]

Going back to the subject of accuracy reality in the March - April 2014 Fouling Shot Journal No. 228 Joe Brennan complied a study of group sizes from the CBA's National Tournaments for the past 14 years.


I have e-mailed him for the complete Excel workbooks that include pistol matches but the 14 year average was 0.924" for 5 shot at a 100 with the heavy duty scoped benchrest rifles shooting cast bullets.

[ole 5 hole group]

That's not saying too much for cast bullets in rifles???

I would have thought the record would be in the 0.1's or possibly in the zeros - with average of all shooters not exceeding the half inch range at most. Some of those rifles are pretty high dollar.

Back in the mid-70's I arrived at a rifle range in Texas and was informed that 3 smokepole shooters just whipped up on 3 scoped rifle shooters at 100 yards on jackrabbit targets. I looked at those targets and those 54 caliber holes seemed to be in the same spot on all their targets. Those muzzle loaders never dropped a point and had all X's to boot while the rifle boys dropped either one or two X's. The best you could hope for was a tie with those boys. Those were the best targets I've ever seen shot by stovepipes but then again, I've not been around many black powder boys that were serious about their shooting.

[robertbank]

M-Tecs
the key is the number of shots making up the group. As you increase then number eg 5 you increase the probability of all the components of accuracy to align up differently, everything from grip pressure to how the powder burn varies. A group of three is not the same as five. Nor is shooting a group under the pressures of a match the same as shooting groups at your local club where there is no pressure to succeed that day. I too, was surprised at the results for 100 yards. Beyond 100 yards gets very much more trickier. Still there is talent in those results. Kinda like going from a 10 handicap to zero. It just isn't shooting 10 less shots in the round of golf. I wish it was that easy. I tried God knows I tried. Hats off to those who can. They are very special people.

Take Care

Bob

[M-Tecs]

ole 5 hole group

The National records for the tightest groups ever fired in any CBA competition are much smaller. Here is the link to the current records http://www.castbulletassoc.org/natio.../natrecord.pdf

The group size average over the 14 years shows how difficult it is the consistently shoot 1 MOA or tighter with cast on demand.

[onceabull]

I find it amazing (maybe mystifying) how long some of those records have stood up.. Oneabull

[cbrick]

I took the K38 to the range today with the light loaded SWC and WFN I made up yesterday. By the end of the session I was getting a proper trigger squeeze and not knowing exactly when the gun would fire. This is really the first time I have been able to do that.
I was setting my grip so the gun was supported but not gripped any tighter than needed. It seemed to relax me and make it easier for me to do the squeeze.
Groups were a little tighter. I just need to get steadier on my hold. That will take time and practice.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I am heading in the right direction with this.

Yeah, grip isn't something that just happens. A proper consistent grip is practiced and practiced continually until it's as natural as looking through the sights. Until you know instantly that it's not exactly the same as it was on the last shot. After each shot remove it from your shooting hand with the off hand and replace it exactly as it was. Even a 22 will move in your hand under recoil.

Support the barrel in a rest but don't allow the grip to be on the bench, that causes bouncing and it won't bounce the same each time.

Rick

[robertbank]

I find it amazing (maybe mystifying) how long some of those records have stood up.. Oneabull

After a certain length of time you get down to really gifted individuals who bring to the table temperament, physical capabilities and desire that not many of us posses all in one package. Folks like that don't come along like that often, nor does fate. Weather conditions have to be right, and who knows maybe keeping your tongue in your left side of your cheek is the magic answer. Having the right equipment helps a lot too. Probably as important or more than any other variable outside of the shooter.

Within your physical and mental abilities we all have a plateau. Having the desire to get there may or may not always be worth the effort. For some it is, for others not so much.

Take Care

Bob

[cbrick]

Within your physical and mental abilities we all have a plateau. Having the desire to get there may or may not always be worth the effort. For some it is, for others not so much. Take Care Bob

Your physical and mental plateau are self imposed. Raise your plateau and strive to reach it, when you do raise it again.

Any goal you set for yourself is worth the effort to achieve. Only for those willing to accept mediocrity is the desire to get there not worth the effort and will stop well short of their real possibilities.

Dozens of posts telling people to accept mediocrity rather than working to be all that you can be. For all those reading this thread that agree with Bob go right ahead and accept mediocrity, for those not so self limited go for it. What you can achieve if you don't limit yourself and defeat yourself before you begin you will surprise yourself with what you really can do.

Rick

[dtknowles]

How do you decide when your revolver is what is holding you back? When I was unable to consistenly get under 1 MOA groups from any rifle I owned I decided to find out if the problem was the shooter, the gun or the ammo. I got a used benchrest rifle in 6mm PPC and instantly was shooting under 0.5 MOA and worked down to under 0.25 MOA quite quickly. I decided that the problem was the other rifles I was shooting.

I have a revolver that consistently shoots between 1.5 and 2.0 inches at 25 yards shooting from bags on the bench with a scope. How do I find out whether the gun shoots better than that and I am the problem or if the gun is the problem?

Tim

[fecmech]

I have a revolver that consistently shoots between 1.5 and 2.0 inches at 25 yards shooting from bags on the bench with a scope. How do I find out whether the gun shoots better than that and I am the problem or if the gun is the problem?

No expert here but I think your gun or load is holding you back given bags,bench & scope. As long as you are being consistent, that's the key. As I have mentioned in past posts I owned a Ransom Rest some years back and still own 3 of the guns that were shot in said rest. With dot sights now on the guns I can duplicate the 50 yd. groups I shot with the Ransom years ago.

[tazman]

How do you decide when your revolver is what is holding you back? When I was unable to consistenly get under 1 MOA groups from any rifle I owned I decided to find out if the problem was the shooter, the gun or the ammo. I got a used benchrest rifle in 6mm PPC and instantly was shooting under 0.5 MOA and worked down to under 0.25 MOA quite quickly. I decided that the problem was the other rifles I was shooting.

I have a revolver that consistently shoots between 1.5 and 2.0 inches at 25 yards shooting from bags on the bench with a scope. How do I find out whether the gun shoots better than that and I am the problem or if the gun is the problem?

Tim

What I did was find a person who was a demonstrated great shot and had him (or her in a couple of cases) shoot my gun. When they did much better than I did with my loads I knew I had some work to do.
Now I know that the guns I own will shoot to the capabilities of the people who I asked to shoot them. I just need to improve myself. I am working on that from every angle that I can.
I am working with ammo, eyeglasses, optics, shooting techniques, and proper practice to get where I want to be.
I am already at the level I set as a goal a year ago. During the trip I found that there is more available to do. It just takes time and work.
My goals may change again as I go.
No real hurry, I have the rest of my life to get there.

[jonp]

I took the K38 to the range today with the light loaded SWC and WFN I made up yesterday. By the end of the session I was getting a proper trigger squeeze and not knowing exactly when the gun would fire. This is really the first time I have been able to do that.
I was setting my grip so the gun was supported but not gripped any tighter than needed. It seemed to relax me and make it easier for me to do the squeeze.
Groups were a little tighter. I just need to get steadier on my hold. That will take time and practice.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I am heading in the right direction with this.

Put a couple of WC's through my K38 today with target loads. Still getting used to the trigger. Can't wait till it smooths up

[robertbank]

Your physical and mental plateau are self imposed. Raise your plateau and strive to reach it, when you do raise it again.

Any goal you set for yourself is worth the effort to achieve. Only for those willing to accept mediocrity is the desire to get there not worth the effort and will stop well short of their real possibilities.

Dozens of posts telling people to accept mediocrity rather than working to be all that you can be. For all those reading this thread that agree with Bob go right ahead and accept mediocrity, for those not so self limited go for it. What you can achieve if you don't limit yourself and defeat yourself before you begin you will surprise yourself with what you really can do.

Rick

What a load of horse puckey!

One thing 43 years in banking taught me is we are not all wired the same. Some folks were/are quite happy to avoid responsibilities, do jobs that are for other mundane in nature and are get through life quite well. Others must succeed and rise to the top no matter what.
Who is to decide which is better....you? Or do you realize that we all are not married to the same gal.

Folks can make their minds up as to what level of achievement they want to achieve, they don't need you lecturing them. Some are quite happy to knock soda cans off a rack at 15 yards. Good on them. Others find bullseye shooting boring as heck, while others can't wait to get to the range fast enough. What you call mediocrity I call getting comfortable in your own skin. Shooters can decide what they want to pursue by taking what they have and doing what they want with it. Their life not yours.

On this thread it has been said that stock out of the box Rugers will shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yards. No problem. If the shooter can't do it with his stock Ruger he/she just has to go practice more, or learn to load better, or hold the gun a certain way. Jeez, why do guys put scopes on their revolvers? Are those stock iron sights too limiting? Poor eye sight caused by cataracts or just bad eyesight. I don't suppose tight chambers or a 5 degree forcing cone might have something to do with limited results shooting cast. How about within spec timing. Nope, "it is a poor man who blames his tools" seems to be the song you are singing. Just follow your advice and you will reach the promised land. Well if action shooting is your game you won't. The loose grip you recommend would be scoffed at by most teachers of defensive shooting as evidenced in USPSA or IDPA. Might work in slow fire bullseye work but would be a killer in speed shooting where getting back on target quickly is paramount. One size does not fit all.

Be the best you want to be might be a better mantra. You are no less a person for not carrying to be. Some folks just like to watch TV. Who is to say they are wrong.

Take Care

Bob



I notice you have been noticeably silent now some actual match results have been posted.

[Gus Youmans]

Your physical and mental plateau are self imposed. Raise your plateau and strive to reach it, when you do raise it again.

Any goal you set for yourself is worth the effort to achieve. Only for those willing to accept mediocrity is the desire to get there not worth the effort and will stop well short of their real possibilities.

Dozens of posts telling people to accept mediocrity rather than working to be all that you can be. For all those reading this thread that agree with Bob go right ahead and accept mediocrity, for those not so self limited go for it. What you can achieve if you don't limit yourself and defeat yourself before you begin you will surprise yourself with what you really can do.

Rick

I think you misinterpret many of the posts that you think are telling people to accept mediocrity. The reality of life is that we must choose the level at which we are going to perform each task every day of our lives. We can't perform each task perfectly simply because there are just not enough resources (time, money, daylight, physical ability, etc.), so we have to decide what we are going to perform to a high standard and what we are going to perform to a lesser standard. Performing a less important task to a lower, but still acceptable standard is not the same as being mediocre. It simply means that we have allocated our resources and effort to another task that we think is more important.

What little bit of shooting I get to do these days is mainly done at an indoor range and is all done from a standing, two handed position at 50 feet and 25 yards. Having been a bullseye shooter earlier in life, I know what I was capable of when 30 years younger, with a lot super accurate ammunition, tuned guns, and a lot of practice, both live fire and dry fire. Now, at the age of 62, my priorities have changed and pistol shooting is way down on the priority list. I am no longer able to keep most of my shots in the X and 10 ring and am happy when most of my shots are in the black. I still test my guns and ammo from a Ransom Rest but I no longer try to squeeze out the last little bit of accuracy because my physical ability is now the biggest limiting factor, far exceeding any errors caused by the guns or ammo. That does not mean my ammo is mediocre. It simply means that my limited physical skills no longer warrant the additional time, effort, and money to load ammo to the same standards as when I was an active competitive shooter.

Gus Youmans

[cbrick]

Bob, once again you are wrong on every point, very common with your posts. I know there is no teaching those that already know everything so for those wishing to improve this is for you

Yep, folks sure can make up their own mind as to the level of achievement they wish to achieve. There has been no lecturing in this thread with the exception of those that have imposed limitations on themselves and want others to do the same. No one, not me or anyone else has told anyone that they must do anything. Others that wish to improve their shooting have asked specific question to which they were given specific answers. Answers that don't seem to sit well with those that settle for mediocrity and try to convince others to do likewise.

As for scopes on my revolvers, you bet I do. When I am working up a load I want to know what the gun/load is doing by taking as much of me out of the picture as possible. I am not practicing or shooting a match, I am working up a load. No idea why anyone would be so upset with that.

As a matter of fact I have had cataract surgery in both eyes, so what? As for the cutting the forcing cone that you so adamantly promote, I have never had the forcing cone cut on a single revolver. Never! It's those that settle to be mediocre that blames his tools. How many forcing cones have you had cut Bob?

Yep, the grip I recommended no doubt wouldn't work well in USPSA or IDPA. But that kinda brings up the question . . . Who the h*ll here is talking about USPSA or IDPA? Can't say I've ever seen anyone grouping from the bench "speed shooting" but then I've never watched Bob shoot so . . . I've said in other posts in this thread that this is not defensive or combat shooting. That is an entirely different shooting discipline. We (not Bob, he's on his own agenda) are discussing accuracy shooting with the revolver.

Be the best you want to be. Yes, there is something we agree on. For those that wish to improve be the very best you can be. Never settle for less. Never let someone that has admitted in post after post, page after page that they cannot do it, admitted over and over that they settle for mediocrity tell you that you should also.

Rick