My Ultimate 44-40 load (photos)

[ajjohns]

Hey thank you. I have some to use from my gun stock finishing. I honestly have never tried to clean one this bad, it just won't come out after hours of trying brushing and soaking patches. Just keeps coming out real green. And still looks horrible with a lot of raised spots in both lands and grooves. It really doesn't look so pitted, just really really fouled. I was about to try plugging the breach end and fill it up to the bore with benchrest Hoppes and let it sit over night. It'll get better, it's gotta before the fall so it can hit the woods! Thank you.

[KirkD]

You might want to soak it overnight in turpentine, then take the steel wool to the bore the next day. Turpentine has a way of working its way under the fouling. Diesel fuel might work as well, though I've not tried it in a bore. I just know from years on the farm that diesel made a great penetrating oil.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'd be careful using Hoppe's Benchrest to soak a barrel for more than 10-20 mins. Same goes for Sweet's 7.62 or similar products. Just too tough and liable to do damage. The best thing I ever saw for soaking was Robler Klever. It was a Ballistol product. I haven't seen it since the mid 80's.

The diesel or Turpentine would work, cheaper than gun stuff as well.

[ajjohns]

Ok, well I guess I was just going off the description I read in a catalog on the benchrest stuff letting it soak over night if needed. In my other rifles I've never had this problem. But I've always kept up on the the cleaning chores, and I guess the previous owners of my old ones did too. I have diesel, no problem to use it. I'll try it and keep on it and see if I can turn it around. I don't want to turn this thread into my cleaning - but thanks for the input! I really like seeing the guns you guys are using and seeing the loads you make for them. I have only heard my WW2 veteran Dad talk about all the lead loads of the past, he taught me all my reloading years ago. We just usually always used jacketed pills. You guys are really fun to learn from and read. Thanks - and I'll let you know if this oldie becomes a goodie.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Ok, well I guess I was just going off the description I read in a catalog on the benchrest stuff letting it soak over night if needed. In my other rifles I've never had this problem. But I've always kept up on the the cleaning chores, and I guess the previous owners of my old ones did too. I have diesel, no problem to use it. I'll try it and keep on it and see if I can turn it around. I don't want to turn this thread into my cleaning - but thanks for the input! I really like seeing the guns you guys are using and seeing the loads you make for them. I have only heard my WW2 veteran Dad talk about all the lead loads of the past, he taught me all my reloading years ago. We just usually always used jacketed pills. You guys are really fun to learn from and read. Thanks - and I'll let you know if this oldie becomes a goodie.

Maybe I'm giving you a bum steer with the Hoppe's Benchrest, but I knew Jim Sweet who started Sweet's 7.62 and he always said to make sure it didn't stay in the barrel for longer than 20mins or so. My memory of Hoppe's Benchrest is that it actually seemed more pungent than Sweet's so I though that the same rules would apply.

[405]

Agree about the caution when using any ammonia based copper eater. I wouldn't hesitate to plug and fill a bore with regular Hoppe's #9 or Kroil or kersosene or turp., etc. then leave it overnight. The high ammonia stuff will eat copper but may keep on eating. I use Sweet's for really stubborn fouling but only leave it in a few minutes.

All that labor and time gets old when dealing with copper fouling. Most times I much prefer to shoot a good, accurate cast bullet load. The cleaning is sooo much easier. 2-3 patches with Hoppes #9, followed by a couple of dry patches, followed by an oiled patch- done.

[SgtDog0311]

Great posts here... KirkD and Smithy, always enjoy reading your stuff and I've seen enough of the others mentioned here to know they are top notch. Green Lizzard has made a dacron user out of me but really enjoy seeing it so clearly illustrated.

Smithy, long time no talk!!

[Outpost75]

With proper bullets which fit, using alloy of appropriate hardness for the pressure level, you can get very good results with the fast-burning pistol or shotgun powders.

I use the Accurate 43-200Q heeled bullet, sizing its enlarged nose to .430 diameter to fit my Marlin 1894S .44-40 rifle from the 1993 run, which has a Microgroove barrel. The bullet shank has a reversed taper with .425 base band and .427 mid-band. This permits sizing the nose to fit old worn barrels with large groove diameters without the necks of loaded rounds interfering with tight-necked chambers. Bullets can be hand-started with the fingers in a sized, unexpanded case, and seated simply by pushing the nose against a table edge until the bullet stops against the enlarged nose flange. Then they are crimped using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

My hunting bullets are cast soft, 1:30 tin/lead alloy from Roto Metals and lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. Air cooled wheelweights are also good, but I recommend no harder than 12 BHN. Two loads which work well for me are either 7.2 grains of Bullseye, or 7.8 grains of Red Dot.

No wads or filler of any kind are used. The 7.2 grain Bullseye load chronographed 1270 fps from a 20" barrel, similar to original blackpowder loads with a standard deviation of 8 fps over a 10-shot string and an extreme spread of 22 fps. The 7.8 grain Red Dot load chronographed 1248 fps with a standard deviation of 13 fps, also over a ten-shot string with an extreme spread of 31 fps. These loads are extremely uniform and require NO FILLER. Either load will average 2" over a continuous series of five TEN-SHOT groups fired off sandbags using iron sights at 50 yards. The pictures don't lie. Here is a series of five 50 yard TEN-shot groups with the Bullseye load.

.44-40 Team testers on the Marlin forum have gotten good results in original blackpowder rifles having worn bores, using either unsized or appropriately sized bullets in groove diameters as large as .441".
the thread here: http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/te...e-43-200q.html

Attachment 116515

Here is the bullet: Attachment 116516Attachment 116517

This is my plain vanilla Microgroove barreled rifle: Attachment 116518

[SgtDog0311]

Outpost75, Nice shooting and good work done there no doubt. I shoot a handful of hyphens but only just started on the 44-40.

[3leggedturtle]

Kirk: great pics and info as usual. Cant believe i didnt see this post till now.

[KirkD]

The excellent work and shooting done by Outpost75 is in an area that I haven't done much in. The main reason is that fast powders use small charges and I like a charge that is obvious if it is double charged. That being said, there are real advantages for the fast powders like Bullseye. First, the can of powder lasts longer. Second, you don't need any filler to get complete burning (in fact, I would never use filler with powders faster than 2400). Third, they give a very sharp peak pressure which is particular good at obdurating the cast bullet to fill the throat. That, in turn, gives better accuracy. The only possible disadvantage that I can think of is that it is easier to overload a cartridge if one ever gets a bit sloppy.

[Outpost75]

If you want assurance against double charging in the .44-40 use Red Dot! The RCBS Little Dandy rotor #19 which meters the correct 7.8 grain charge of Red Dot to approximate black powder velocity with a 200-grain lead bullet is the same one which throws 15.4 grains of Alliant #2400, which is also a good .44-40 load, but the advantage being that Red Dot is bulky enough that a double charge will overflow the case and be obvious!

As FYI, for loading with your Ideal tong tool in the field, a black powder flask with tube that measures 20 grains of 3Fg black powder has the same volume as the Little Dandy rotor #19 and will also dispense 7.8 grains of Red Dot or 15.4 grains of Alliant #2400, which facilitiates useful cast bullet loads in alot of calibers. It is absolutely necessary that you verify what your flask measures with a scale and then clearly mark it as to contents when using smokeless in it so avoid any confusion.

My Red Dot flask is spray painted bright RED!

[Ragnarok]

I just got into the .44-40 earlier this year with a older Rossi carbine and a even older Winchester sporting rifle. Both needed just a bit of work(dented mag-tubes).

Anyhow...Both shoot quite decent with cowboy ammo....and I have reloading dies...brass and some purchased lead bullets. Just have not got around to finding a bullet mold and making ammo. I would use the Hornady 200gr bullets I bought except they are small!!...Box says .427...micrometer say's .424/.423 or less...well maybe they will bump-up...or maybe I will buy a mold.

[Outpost75]

Accurate 43-200Q

[Four Fingers of Death]

Wrap them in cigarette paper then smear with a bit of lube maybe.

[35 shooter]

Wow! Just found this thread. Enjoyed reading it very much and now find myself wanting a 73 more than ever. Lots of good tips on the fillers and loads and some very fine groups fired over iron sights. Some fine looking rifles being displayed too!

[w30wcf]

I just got into the .44-40 earlier this year with a older Rossi carbine and a even older Winchester sporting rifle. Both needed just a bit of work(dented mag-tubes).

Anyhow...Both shoot quite decent with cowboy ammo....and I have reloading dies...brass and some purchased lead bullets. Just have not got around to finding a bullet mold and making ammo. I would use the Hornady 200gr bullets I bought except they are small!!...Box says .427...micrometer say's .424/.423 or less...well maybe they will bump-up...or maybe I will buy a mold.

Awhile back I purchased a couple of the 200 count boxes of the Hornady swaged 200 gr. "smaller" bullets. After testing with some faster burning powders, I found that 6.5 grs of Trail Boss worked the best, giving 10 shot groups under 1" @ 25 yards.

Trail Boss has a pressure rise faster than b.p. and bumped up the undersized 7 BHN bullet to fit the barrel and thus shoot accurately.

w30wcf