44 mag Keith Loads

[Clay M]

My cousin used a 73 win .38/40 back in the 60's. I remember him saying he felt it was as good for killing deer as anything out there.Today he uses an 86 in .45/70. Somehow the years have made him change his mind.
I use a heavy loaded .44 mag because it works. I have lost deer with a .357 mag and a .41 mag.I can make both those guns work, but not with just any load.
Funny how people think a .44 mag rifle is marginal,but a heavy loaded .44mag revolver is simply over kill.
I can kill all the deer I want with a .22LR just so I get the shot I want.But in the field that isn't always possible.

[mrdante]

Hey, I got out and tested some rounds today!!

I was using mixed brass and Win. Std. primers. I only took some loads of 21gr of 2400 with me today. Hopefully I can get out this week and test some 22gr 2400, also I hope to test the same Keith bullet with N110, W296, Lil'Gun and maybe AA#9 in my Winchester and a couple of Ruger SBH's. Just depends on how much time I can devote to the bench.

On to the results!!!

Out of my Marlin 1894 20" barrel. Avg. Vel. 1671 fps, SD 22, ES 65.

And out of my Ruger Carbine 16" Avg. Vel. 1664 fps, SD 16, ES 52.

I was really surprised that the 2 were so close on velocity with a 4" barrel difference, and one being a Lever and the other a Gas gun.

The only thing I could think is the rifling plays into it. Any insight to this would be great.

This load would not feed in the Marlin, but the Ruger ate them like candy. Has anyone else had problems with the Keith feeding in a Marlin?
Iv'e only had the rifle about a month and today was the first time I shot it. I had another one a few years back but only fired XTP's through it.

What boolit have you had success with in the 44 lever?

[IDSS]

...I was really surprised that the 2 were so close on velocity with a 4" barrel difference, and one being a Lever and the other a Gas gun.

The only thing I could think is the rifling plays into it. Any insight to this would be great...

I can't say for sure, but the velocity difference is likely due to it being a handgun round. The "Ballistics By The Inch" site shows that trend in several handgun rounds fired out of rifle and carbine length barrels. Some of the rounds even look like they want a shorter barrel; i.e. they begin showing slower velocities (Or tiny gains) as the barrels get longer. That seems to be more pronounced with the small-capacity autopistol rounds.

[mrdante]

Got out and shot the 22gr load.

Ruger 16" Carbine: Avg. Vel. 1704 fps, SD 21, ES 70

Marlin 1894 20": Avg Vel. 1740 fps, SD 24, ES 75

I was single loading the Marlin. That fixed the feeding problem (Joke)

Everything ejected fine, but the primers where flat. I think I'll stick to the 21grs if I use 2400.

[6thtexas]

I shoot 20.0 gr. 2400 with a 429421 or RCBS 245-K in my M29 S&W and a Ruger SBH. I never could get my Marlin to feed them 100%. The marlin eats 429215s sized big and heat treated.

[smilin jack]

I tried the 22gr load in my 3 screw SBH and it sure worked the cases and flattened the primers. I now shoot 18.5grs and accuracy is much better. I size to Saami specs of .432" that matches my cylinder throats.

From Elmer's writing I get the impression that he was not easy on the guns. He had to weld some of them back together during his experimenting with heavy loads prior to the 44 mag.

Leadman, thanks for the load info (18.5 gr of 2400). I'm shooting that load in my Taurus Raging Bull 4" titanium. Any more powder barks too much with the 429421.

Planning on packing this for deer and black bear this year in Western Oregon. Probably will pack the 1917 Eddystone with cast loads too. Only a week of waiting till deer season starts. Bear is already open as well as cougar.

Dave

[williamwaco]

My question is has anybody had any real world (Chronoed not just blast and said "at'll work" experience with 22grs of "Alliant" 2400 and if so what was your results.

NO! And I don't intend to.

In the 1950s, I used the Keith Load exactly as published. Shot a lot of them. Obviously with Hercules powder.

It was too hot then then with Hercules powder and it is even more so today.

It flattened and engraved primers then and only the Rugers could stand up to a steady diet.

I recommend you stay away from it.

[Larry Gibson]

"My question is has anybody had any real world(Chronoed not just blast and said "at'll work" experience with 22grsof "Alliant" 2400 and if so what was your results."


Uh….well, yes I have.It is a “sticky” around here somewhere……

Testincludes chronographing AND pressure testing. Note from the tests the 22 gr 2400 load under the RCBS 44-250-K bulletdid not exceed the SAAMI Map for the 44 Magnum cartridge.I have used the 22 gr load of Hercules andnow Alliant under numerous 240 – 250 gr cast bullets for many years in numerous guns w/o a singleproblem and nothing but the best performance.

LarryGibson


2400; Hercules vs Alliant

Sometime back I stated I would conduct a pressure test comparing the oldHercules 2400 with the newer Alliant 2400. Alliant, since taking overmanufacture of the Hercules powders, says they have not changed the formula of2400 yet most reloading manuals show a decline of around 1 gr with maximumloads. The question of whether or not there is a difference between oldHercules 2400 and Alliant 2400 most often comes up with the .44 magnum,specifically with 429421 and the classic “Keith” load of 22 gr under thatbullet. Lyman’s Cast Bullet Manual lists a maximum load at 23.4 gr of 2400 withthe 429421 cast bullet, their “Keith” bullet. Some say 21 grains is the maxwith the newer Alliant 2400 and others still shoot 22 gr of the newer Alliant2400 the same as they did with Hercules 2400. This begs the question; is therea difference between the older Hercules 2400 and the newer Alliant 2400? Thistest will focus on the pressure difference between the two powders if any.Though I will mention accuracy in a couple places let us remember we areconcerned about pressure here and what is a “safe” load, not what is anaccurate load.

As an after thought I also decided to throw in a test string using magnum largepistol primers to test whether there is an internal ballistic differencebetween their use and the normal use of a standard large pistol primer in the44 magnum with the classic “Keith” load.

I have conducted this because I have the equipment not only measure thevelocity but also the psi of many cartridges, the 44 magnum included. I alsodecided to include a test of a popular load using 2400 with a 160 grain castbullet in the 30-30.

I conducted the test yesterday, the 7th of January 2010. The test was conductedat Tacoma Rifle and Revolver Club on the main range. There are very solidcement benches there and I use the same bench when conducting pressure testswith the screens, equipment set up in the same position and locations. The testinstrument is the M43 Personal Ballistics Laboratory made by Oehler Research.The test firearm was the Thompson Center Contender; a 8.4” barrel for the .44magnum and a 21” barrel for the 30-30. The 44 magnum barrel has a 1.5X Bushnellscope mounted on it and the 30-30 barrel has a Weaver K4. The 30-30 barrel isin carbine form with a Brown thumbhole rear stock.

It took a while to locate an old can of Hercules 2400 but a forum member, Shuz,came across with one. He lives in Spokane so it took some coordination to getit transported to me on the other side of the state. Many thanks should begiven to Shuz and his daughter who made this test possible.

The cardboard cylindrical “can” of Hercules 2400 was unopened and I cut theplastic end off the little plastic spout. The bottom of the can was marked “Shift1”, 02400 066, 12693. The plastic “can” of Alliant 2400 has a lot # of CE0519on it and was purchased last year before the rush.

The 44 magnum bullets were cast of WWs+2% tin in a RCBS 44-250-K double cavitymould. Bullets were inspected for complete fill out and other defects but otherthan that were non selected. The bullets fully dressed weighed 254 grains. Thebullet lube used was Javelina and bullets were sized .430 in a Lyman 450. Caseswere new, unfired, Winchester WW Super manufacture. Primers were Federal 150sand CCI 350s. Cases were sized and loaded in RCBS dies. A heavy roll crimp wasapplied in the bullets crimp groove as a separate step. AOL was 1.705”. Powdercharges were weighed on a Redding scale.

The 30-30 bullets were cast of the same alloy in a Lyman 311466 double cavitymould. The bullets were visually inspected only for defects. The Hornady gaschecks were pre seated then the bullets were sized and lubed with Javelina in aLyman 450 with a .314 H die. The bullets were then pushed through a Lee .311sizer. The fully dressed bullets weighed right at 160 gr. The .311 sizedbullets when loaded in the FC 30-30 cases gave a very tight slip fit in thechambers neck. Cases were full length sized in an RCBS X-die die with a Lyman.31 M-die used to expand the case mouth and a 7mm seating die used to seat theover diameter bullets. Primers were Winchester WLRs. The bullets were seatedwith the front diving band just off the lands putting the GC right at the baseof the case neck. AOL was 2.45”.

Test; the test strings for the 44 magnum consisted of 10 shots each for20.5, 21, 21.5 and 22 gr of both Hercules and Alliant 2400. At 21 gr I alsofired the additional test string of 10 shots using the CCI LP magnum primer.The target for the 44 magnum was at 50 yards. The start screen was 16 feet fromthe muzzle. The 30-30 test strings were also of 10 shots each and consisted of16 gr of each of the 2400s. The target for the 30-30 test was at 100 yards. Thestart screen for the 30-30 test was 15 feet from the muzzle.

The temperature during the test range from 39 to 43 F. There was no wind tospeak of. As is my usual practice when I set up the M43 I fired a 5 shot teststring with a specific .308W rifle and one lot of M118SB as “referenceammunition” to ensure the M43 set up is good. This same specific rifle is usedwith a clean bore and the same lot of very uniform ammunition each time I setup the M43 for a test. In this case the reference ammunition test velocity andpsi data readings were well with in norm for the 39 F temperature. All was goodwith the M43 set up so I conducted the test. At the conclusion of the 44 magnumtest I cleaned the barrel and also ran 2 jacketed loads through it as areference. This was a factory load and another standard load with a jacketedbullet. The ballistic information on these is also included for reference. Added: With regards to the seemingly low psi; this test was conducted at 39-43 F. A check of previous test with this same bullets and same lot of 22 gr ofAlliant conducted when the temperature was in the high 70s revealed an increaseof 5,000 psi over what was obtained in this test. Obviously the ambienttemperature is a variable that must be considered.

Data and remarks; I will list the data for each charge as; H2400(Hercules 2400) or A2400 (Alliant 2400) /velocity (adjusted to muzzle)/SD(Standard Deviation)/ ES (Extreme Spread) and under that will be the MAP (MeanAverage Pressure)/SD/ES. All velocities, SDs and ES are in feet per second. AllMAPs, SD and ES are in psi(M43). Keep in mind that pressure data and velocitydata are not absolutes. There are expected variations between test strings ofthe same lot of ammunition and also between lots of components, especiallypowders. Alliant, of course, does not reveal the variation between lots of anypowder. I do know that it was acceptable for a +/- 5% variation (10% variationpossible) between different lots of IMR 4895. This is why some lots shoot‘faster” or “slower” than other lots of the same powder. Also keep in mind thatfactory published psi and SAAMI psi are maximum allowable average pressures forspecific cartridges. That does not mean every one of those cartridges areloaded to that psi level. Quite the contrary most factory and arsenalammunition are well below those published figures, a “fudge factor” if youwill.

The 44 magnum cartridge has a SAAMI MAP psi, using piezo-electric measurement,of 41,000 psi or 36,000 C.U.P. (Copper Unit Pressure). Also keep in mind that Iam not using a SAAMI spec test barrel. I am using a production barrel with morethan likely specs that are not at minimum like the SAAMI specs. Thus we canexpect somewhat less velocity and attendant less pressure out of the Contenderbarrel than we would get with identical loads out of a SAAMI spec test barrel.For that very reason I would not load to the SAAMI max of 41,000 psi in thisbarrel. In my experience with the M43 and psi measurements in productionbarrels I would consider 35,000 psi(M43) to be a maximum load for the 44 magnumin a production barrel such as the Contender’s.

20.5 gr
H2400; 1365/17/56
25,700/900/2,700

A2400; 1425/13/41
26,000/600/1,900

[B]21 gr[/B]
H2400; 1436/18/53
28,900/1,100/3,100

A2400; 1466/14/47
27,200/600/2,200

21 gr with CCI 350 magnum primers
H2400; 1438/17/51
27,100/1,000/3,000

A2400; 1474/19/60
27,300/1,100/3,200

21.5 gr
H2400; 1455/18/55
26,500/900/2,400

A2400; 1468/18/58
27,000/800/3,000

22 gr
H2400; 1493/20/57
27,000/700/2,000

A2400; 1515/14/47
27,900/700/2,400

Magtech 44 magnum factory ammunition; 240 HHP, 17.2 gr flake powder
1376/24/72
25,100/1,700/6,100

Hornady 240 gr XTP/24.5 gr H110, R-P cases, WLP primer
1540/16/46
31,200/1,500/4,700

From the above data, with the exception of the 21 gr data, we see that theAlliant 2400 appears to be “hotter”. However, the difference is less than 2%which is probably well within acceptable lot to lot variation. The 21 gr loadwhere the Hercules 2400 is “hotter” is even less that 2% variation. Note thatthe 21.5 gr load of Hercules 2400 has 2,400 less psi than the 21 gr load ofAlliant 2400 but still has a slightly higher velocity….such are the variancesand why there is an acceptable variance. It is also why the “fudge factor” isbuilt in. Were all the loads of Alliant 2400 “hotter” than the Hercules 2400 wecould safely say, at least from this test, that this lot of Alliant 2400 is“hotter” than this lot of Hercules 2400. However that is not the case. Withthis test it appears both powders fall within lot to variation of a specificpowder.

The Magtech factory ammunition is fairly indicative of current factoryvelocities and pressures. The Hornady XTP load is a popular load for thatbullet and you can see the velocity and psi is up there. Lyman lists 23.4 gr of2400 as a max load with their 429421 in the 3rd edition of their Cast BulletHandbook. I can not disagree with that psi wise given the results of this test.

As to accuracy I have found with PB’d cast bullets used loaded in revolvercartridges and shot in other Contenders, revolvers with 6”+ barrels and riflesthat accuracy starts to go above 1400 – 1450 fps and so it was with this test.The 21.5 gr load of both Hercules and Alliant 2400 with the CCI magnum primersproved to be the most accurate load on target even though the standard Federalprimer load had slightly better internal ballistics. A repeat of the test couldvery well reverse that as the difference between the two powders internally oraccuracy wise wasn’t enough to consider remarkable. I would use either load inthis Contender barrel for hunting.

[Outpost75]

Larry,

Thanks for posting this. Good info. Very much appreciated!

[williamwaco]

Larry,

Thanks for posting this. Good info. Very much appreciated!

Ditto and it appears I am overly cautious.