30x57 & 35x57

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

After shorten the FL die .288", what is the resulting head diameter of a full-length sized case? Having never personal chambered a rifle barrel, I'm wondering how easy it would be for a gunsmith to chamber to deeply. Wouldn't one need go/no-go headspace gages to properly chamber for the 30x57 and 35x57?

MJ

The head diameter is the same. Regular FL dies do not size cases down to original specs. Thus with the shortened die the head of the case is not sized. Actually makes for a tigher match die. Also it's the same for using a standard reamer but reaming the chamber short for these cartridges. The chambers then have tighter "match chamber" specs. It's a win/win all around.

When You shorten the die .288" you form 3 cases and either use or have the gunsmith use them as "go" guages to headspace the chamber. The chamber is reamed deep enough that you just feel the bolt close on the case. It's not hard to do but you must be patient and careful doing the last cut or two with the reamer. Thus the chamber is headspaced to the specific cartridge you are forming in the FL die, not some generic "headspace dimension that may or may not be a good fit.
A custom chamber is all it amounts to.

By forming cases from '06 or Whelen cases (using unfired factory cases would be my choice for the two cartridges) you can then trim the neck to the length of reamer neck for a more perfect case to chamber fit.

Larry Gibson

[Mk42gunner]

Larry,

Since you were talking about using a pre threaded barrel; is it short cahambered too? The reason I ask is that the shoulder on the 30 X 57 is further back than the shoulder of an '06 case. Will the chamber clean up, or do you start with a totally unchambered barrel?

Otherwise this sounds like a well thought out series of cartridges.


Robert

[racepres]

Larry; I got ya on all that... in the mauser .. nothing feeds like the ctg it was meant for!!! I did get a 284 Win to feed in a yugo... but I don't need those hassels again! Heck my 35 Rem aint "just so" yet Been fighting w/ the darn savage just cause I felt that the case capacity was good for my intended purpose, We kill alot of steel plates around here!!! But I can see that barrel being a X57... Real soon.. Soon as I get an '06 reamer.
MV

[JDL]

Dog gone it Larry, I've already tried to scratch this itch! I rebarreled a M. 70 in 7X57 to .358 but, there's a little more magazine that needs filling and I had flirted with the idea of necking the 57mm case up to .35 cal. Now, here you come and provide pics and I start "thinking" again. Thanks for the post. -JDL

[Larry Gibson]

Larry; I got ya on all that... in the mauser .. nothing feeds like the ctg it was meant for!!! I did get a 284 Win to feed in a yugo... but I don't need those hassels again! Heck my 35 Rem aint "just so" yet Been fighting w/ the darn savage just cause I felt that the case capacity was good for my intended purpose, We kill alot of steel plates around here!!! But I can see that barrel being a X57... Real soon.. Soon as I get an '06 reamer.
MV

Assuming you mean a 35 Wheln reamer?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Since you were talking about using a pre threaded barrel; is it short cahambered too? The reason I ask is that the shoulder on the 30 X 57 is further back than the shoulder of an '06 case. Will the chamber clean up, or do you start with a totally unchambered barrel?

Otherwise this sounds like a well thought out series of cartridges.


Robert

With the 35x57 cartridge I'd get the pre-threaded barrel short chambered in 35 Remington. The 35 Whelen reamer then is used to finish ream the chamber to headspace on the formed 35x57 cases. With the 30x57 a pre-threaded barrel in 300 Savage might do as well but I'd have to check and calculate a little more to be sure. You gan also get just a pre-threaded barrel that isn't chambered and do it all your self. Not that difficult as you can use the finish reamer (pretty hard on them though) or use a rough reammer first. If you know what you're doing and have access to a lathe you can use a drill bit of the right size to rough the chamber out.

If you have a SR Mauser you can order the pre-threaded 26" Shilen in 35 Rem with 14" twist and then finish ream it with the 35 Whelen reamer to 35x57. Such was my plan but the M91 Mauser shoots so well in 35 Rem that I can bring myself to do it. I've a sporterized Mexican SR M98 that I'd do one of them on but I've put a new milsurp M38 6.5 Swede barrel on it and it shoots to well to take it off. I may just take the PMCBC barrel off the M1916 and make it a 35x57. Then I've got my old commercial M98 sporter that I've hunted with for years. The '06 barrrel's throat is going fast so a nice 26" barrel with a 14" twist chambered to 30x57 would be a great cast bullet hunting rifle. A bullet like 311041 at 2400 fps would nicely have killed 99% of the deer I shot over the years.

So much to do, so little time. Why do I hallucinate these projects up............

Larry Gibson

[Uncle Grinch]

With the 35x57 cartridge I'd get the pre-threaded barrel short chambered in 35 Remington. The 35 Whelen reamer then is used to finish ream the chamber to headspace on the formed 35x57 cases. With the 30x57 a pre-threaded barrel in 300 Savage might do as well but I'd have to check and calculate a little more to be sure. You gan also get just a pre-threaded barrel that isn't chambered and do it all your self. Not that difficult as you can use the finish reamer (pretty hard on them though) or use a rough reammer first. If you know what you're doing and have access to a lathe you can use a drill bit of the right size to rough the chamber out.

If you have a SR Mauser you can order the pre-threaded 26" Shilen in 35 Rem with 14" twist and then finish ream it with the 35 Whelen reamer to 35x57. Such was my plan but the M91 Mauser shoots so well in 35 Rem that I can bring myself to do it. I've a sporterized Mexican SR M98 that I'd do one of them on but I've put a new milsurp M38 6.5 Swede barrel on it and it shoots to well to take it off. I may just take the PMCBC barrel off the M1916 and make it a 35x57. Then I've got my old commercial M98 sporter that I've hunted with for years. The '06 barrrel's throat is going fast so a nice 26" barrel with a 14" twist chambered to 30x57 would be a great cast bullet hunting rifle. A bullet like 311041 at 2400 fps would nicely have killed 99% of the deer I shot over the years.

So much to do, so little time. Why do I hallucinate these projects up............

Larry Gibson

I love the way you "hallucinate" !

Wish I could do the same.

[thaxted]

With the 35x57 cartridge I'd get the pre-threaded barrel short chambered in 35 Remington. The 35 Whelen reamer then is used to finish ream the chamber to headspace on the formed 35x57 cases. With the 30x57 a pre-threaded barrel in 300 Savage might do as well but I'd have to check and calculate a little more to be sure. You gan also get just a pre-threaded barrel that isn't chambered and do it all your self. Not that difficult as you can use the finish reamer (pretty hard on them though) or use a rough reammer first. If you know what you're doing and have access to a lathe you can use a drill bit of the right size to rough the chamber out.

If you have a SR Mauser you can order the pre-threaded 26" Shilen in 35 Rem with 14" twist and then finish ream it with the 35 Whelen reamer to 35x57. Such was my plan but the M91 Mauser shoots so well in 35 Rem that I can bring myself to do it. I've a sporterized Mexican SR M98 that I'd do one of them on but I've put a new milsurp M38 6.5 Swede barrel on it and it shoots to well to take it off. I may just take the PMCBC barrel off the M1916 and make it a 35x57. Then I've got my old commercial M98 sporter that I've hunted with for years. The '06 barrrel's throat is going fast so a nice 26" barrel with a 14" twist chambered to 30x57 would be a great cast bullet hunting rifle. A bullet like 311041 at 2400 fps would nicely have killed 99% of the deer I shot over the years.

So much to do, so little time. Why do I hallucinate these projects up............

Larry Gibson

You're not alone by any means.
A number years ago,(1994 I think) I acquired a 1940 K98 with a mismatched bolt and a very poor bore. I took it to an old gunsmith/barrelmaker who did cut rifling in his little shop out in central Alberta.

I had him drill and rifle the existing barrel to .358x12inch twist and throat it with I think a 35 Remington reamer. This gave me a chamber with the original 7.92 shoulder but throated to accept standard American 35 caliber bullets.

I made cartridges by annealing .270win or .30-06 cartridges and running them through an 8x57 FL die adjusted off the shell holder to fix any unforeseen headspace problems. A session with the case trimmer got them to the correct length followed by a trip over a .358 expander, and I was ready to load.

I think I used about 44grs of 3031 and also the same charge of 4064. It seems to me that the velocities with a 250gr Hornady bullet was between 2250 and 2300 fps. I had problems using .357 pistol bullets and light charges. Repeated loadings seemed to set the shoulder back and give headspace problems. It was like the weight of the Mauser striker was so great that bolt face driven ahead into the chambered cartridge would set the shoulder back a bit. When the light charge of pistol powder lit, I imagine the neck seized the chamber but the pressure wasn't great enough stretch the cartridge out again and the condition got worse with each firing.

I never did try cast in it ( I have an unused mold 358315) But I did once shoot a skunk with a 250 gr bullet. The old saying about dead is dead and you can't accomplish much beyond that comes to mind.

It was an interesting project, but I never really brought it to any kind of conclusion, so with a lot of other things to do besides fool with guns, all my casting and shooting has been on hold for a long time with my 9.1x57mm project.

What you are proposing is actually a lot more practical idea for two reasons.
Firstly, by trimming a 35Whelen FL die you then have a full length die. With the way I was doing things, once my cartridges were the least bit sticky or stretched I had no way of full length sizing. It was neck size only with a .358win die and the same for bullet seating.
Secondly, by using a 35Whelen chamber reamer you have a way of producing new barrels. My method presupposes an existing barrel with good chamber.
One last thing too comes to mind, the cartridge you suggest should have greater powder capacity by virtue of a slightly greater width at the shoulder.
Reading this thread gives me the urge to make time to dig that old rifle out of storage and take another crack at it.

[Bass Ackward]

Reading this thread gives me the urge to make time to dig that old rifle out of storage and take another crack at it.

Many people look too hard for new experiences when a reward for such effort can be found down a road with an old friend.

[Blammer]

I have a question.

I looked at a drawing of the 8x57 and the 35 whelen.

All dimensions seem to be the same except the case body dia just before the shoulder starts.

the 8mm has .434 dia and the 35 whelen has .441. They both start at the bottom dia of .469 or .470 (not enough to matter) but end at different diameters which give a different taper angle for feeding.

If you use the 35 whelen reamer to make the chamber in the 35 cal barrel you'll no doubt need the 35 whelen die shortened to resize back to dimensions when FL sizing. This is fine. To a point you will have a "blown out" 8mm case, although it is small.

My question is will the difference in body taper from the 8mm to the new 35x57 in any way hinder the feeding of the cartridge in the action? the 35x57 being a more straight taper than the 8mm?

[racepres]

Blammer: Let me say that I doubt it.. based on the experience of converting to rounds including the 22-250 to the current 35 rem.. including a 300WSM.. The conversion considered here should be a "piece of cake" and the gun nor shooter should know the difference.. But... sometimes even the intended ctg.. won't feed slick.. MV

[DonH]

One of the gun writers has been championing a .338X57 cartridge for a while, though I can't recall just who. I read an article he wrote and I wondered what it would do that either .338 Federal, .338-08, .358 Winchester, or just plain old 8X57mm Mauser wouldn't do? He never did explain that to my satisfaction, so I pushed it out of my mind until right now.

If there were a better selection of .323" j-word bullets available in this country suitable for use at 8X57mm velocities, I honestly don't see what a .338 would do that it won't. A .35X57 now, that's a different matter entirely! You could use 250 and 275 grain bullets, assuming that you could move them fast enough to expand them. Otherwise a 200 or 220-225 grain bullet would be the way to go. There's a much better selection of boolits available in .358" than there is in .323, also!

This is a quite old idea, or rather, wildcat. A .338" bullet (actually may have originally been .333) in a necked-up 57mm Mauser case, it was called .33-50 O'Neil after the gent who developed it. Mr O'Neil was he of OKH fame. I would have to refresh my memory but the "50" represented the powder whicj IIRC 4350. The round was the subject of an article in HANDLOADER 20+ years ago. It stuck in my mind because I am a longtime admirer of the Mauser cartridges. Actually had thought about the .30x57 idea but never did anything about it. Mausers just feed so slick with cases they were designed for.

[Larry Gibson]

Blammer

You want to remember that with the 35x57 you are setting the shoulder back farther on the 8x57 case. Thus the shoulder dimension of the formed 35x57 case is wider at the shoulder than the 8x57. Granted probably not as wide as a fire formed case but as you say the shortened FL die used for forming is also used for FL sizing. A shortened 35 Whelen NS would work fine for neck sizing.

Been a while since I've had any of the 35x57 cases but I've formed five 30x57s loaded with 312-185s and five loaded with FMJs. They feed skicker than snot through every Mause (LR & SR) that I have which is quite a few. Not a single failure to feed.

Larry Gibson

[youngun]

I really like the idea. It could easily be done in AI versions as well, since the reamers for 30- and 35- cal aren't all that rare.
If you figure COL of 3.10", a case length of 2.24" you could have any bullet you want, seated where you like; the Whelen's nominal .46" neck gives you 1.320" of bullet before getting into the case. (!) Make the case body 1.827" and the Whelen's .460" neck and you'll still clear the 8mm case when forming, and that'll leave you 1.19" from the neck, pleeenty for even up to 300g.
We're talking 300g, .380" ogive, 60% meplat, 3 lube grooves and you're sitting just over 3.09". I'm thinking the right 24" bbl would push these out a bit over 2000 fps.

[youngun]

On second thought, further beauty of this idea is that you could really cut the chamber and grind the dies right around the bullet you want to shoot. Grind the die down to where the base of the neck = COL - bullet length, and then trim to leave a neck the length of bullet grooves. Within limits, this could work very easily.
Larry, how far have you gotten with this project? Is there a rifle? Load data?

[Larry Gibson]

There is a rifle, a 35x57, that was made some years back when I lived in Oregon. I have lost contact with the owner for the last several years. I've no data for that cartridge. However any data for a 358 Winchester should be pretty close but slightly on the short side.

I've the dies made for the 30x57 and am going to rebarrel a nice M98 sporter I've had for years as soon as I get really retired. That rifle has been my main hunting rifle and the throat is pretty rough and it's about shot out. It's an '06. I've not spent much time at home last year and this year so far. I think that will change here shortly though. I'm looking at a 26" Shilem match barrel with a 14" twist of heavy sporter contour. .308/307 Win data will make good starting loads.

I had intended on chambering the M91 Mauser .35 ARem to 35x57 when I got done playing with it in 35 Rem. Problem is it does so well in 35 Rem I can't bring myself to do it. I've an '9 Argentine M98 action so it may very well end up a 35x57.

Larry Gibson

[GrizzLeeBear]

I really like the idea. It could easily be done in AI versions as well, since the reamers for 30- and 35- cal aren't all that rare...

Not that they wouldn't be a good cartridge, but a 30x57 AI would be, well, basically a 30-06 and a 35x57 AI would basically be a 35 Whelen. Also, I think what Larry is after is to keep the mauser tapered case to prevent any possible feeding issues. Straighter cases sometimes (but not always) have feeding issues in mausers. The standard 57mm case capacity is just about optimum for cast boolit performance and would not really fit in a short action anyway so theres no advantage to an improved case, and it fits perfect in the action it was designed for.

[youngun]

Sure, GLB. Just threw the "AI" thing out there as a possibility. I was otherwise referring to the original idea. Seems that case length with a Whelen-length neck would really be more neck than you'd need. Once you know where the shoulder/neck junction is relative to the COL, you can figure something like 1.25" is a loooong ways away. Larry, if I understand you, you're cutting the '06 case down by .288 which gives you a 2.206" case and a 1.66" body length. You'd need a bullet 1.35+" long (think 350g!) to make use of that at 3.1" COL.
The 8x57's body is nominally 1.819-27" long (CIP vs SAAMI) but this case would lose some 9% powder capacity, closer to the 358W than the x57 case. so if we go short, then we could say:
1.819 + .546 (Whelen from start of shoulder to casemouth)=
2.365" case length which would give you the actual powder room of the x57 and the long neck of the '06 case, ability to use Whelen dies, happy-long neck and reasonable seating length for heavy bullets. (Around 1.2" from base of neck to COL, plus whatever you'll allow for gas checks into the shoulder: perfect for the 300g'ers.)
There's also the issue of the throat you're left with. Many of the wide meplats make you lose up to 100 thou in cartridge length, but setting the chamber back .130" in this way gives you right about that much difference anyway since the round is .230" shorter.
You'd have to call it the 358x60mm, but these are the sacrifices we make for the perfect round.
Then again, trim to 2.244 and you've got the nomenclature secured again, albeit at the cost of having "only" .341" neck. Almost as short as the 35 R....


[Yes, too much time on my hands. Kids are napping.]

[pipehand]

I've been following this thread because I picked up a Yugo 48 really cheap- like for $20 less than the cost of the Huber trigger that was installed in it. The action is good, the barrel is rough, and the stock looks like hell. Even if it was free, I'll eventually have more into it than if I bought a new rembrowwinsavage. But, I would really like to turn it into a cast bullet shooter. I already have two .308 bolt guns,and several 30 cal moulds. I could put a replacement 8mm bbl on the gun, but have no desire to get into 8mm casting. I thought, maybe a 358Win barrel would be nice, but I would like to go with a longer neck and heavy bullets. The 35x57 concept appeals to me, but why couldn't I just run x57 brass into a 358 win die and be done with it? how much different is the 35x57 from the 9x57 Mauser?

[Trailblazer]

I haven't fired any cast boolits in my version of the 30x57. I have pushed 150 Core Lokts to 2800 with 47 grains Varget and also 46 grains BL(C)-2. 52 grains H414 did 2660 with the 150's.