When milsurp ammo goes bad.........

[tygar]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;I finally got around to pulling the rest of the bullets and about 2/3 had severe corrosion inside the cases and on the bases of the bullets. Picture shows 2 of the fired cases including the blown primer. Middle case shows corrosion inside the cases. Bullet on right shows corrosion on the base. Other 2 bullets cleaned up nice with polishing. Powder looks good with no discoloration and smells good but will make good fertilizer anyway..........
Larry Gibson QUOTE]

Dam Larry

Now I'm worried. I have a number of GI spam cans of M1 ammo in M1 clips, that I've had for 20, 30 or even 40 yrs, sitting around waiting for the revolution.

I havn't opened one in years. I do have several 30 cal ammo cans full of lc surplus & NM that I use for standardization testing. I can't remember if they are the same.

Also have sealed in plastic in the wood cases 308 in Austrian, Argentine & British surplus at least 20yo.

Don't remember ever having a problem but I do remember some with external corrosion on the brass.

I'd hate to open airtight cans or sealed plastic to check.

What do you guys think?
Tom

[uscra112]

That green corrosion would indicate the presence of ammonia, would it not? As a breakdown product?

[Pirate69]

That green corrosion would indicate the presence of ammonia, would it not? As a breakdown product?

Could be since you do have a nitrogen based compound. But it could also be copper acetate. Will have to take a harder look at what is going on.

[Multigunner]

Some South American, and other, 7.62 NATO ammo was loaded using surplus powder formerly used to load Mauser ammunition. The powder was good at the time but might have been thirty years old then and nearing the end of its shelf life.

Some 7.62 NATO ammo I pulled down had powder so degraded it smelled like cat urine. Under the verdris on the outside I found tiny pinholes eaten through the case walls.
When I put the powder in a steel IMR powder can the can disintegrated into fine brown dust up to the level of the powder after a couple of months.

[UBER7MM]

Larry,

I once was given a box of commercial hunting cartridges that were about 30 years old. The retail tag stated $12.95 for the 20 rounds. I pulled the bullets. One of the bullets was stuck when I pulled it I tore the neck. The copper bullet was fused to the base case. I wonder what kind of pressure would have been if I'd fire that it.

[Larry Gibson]

Uber7mm

Yes some of those 7.65 bullets were very hard to pull which may very well have raised the pressure.

Tygar

Don't know what to tell you except I also have a "stash". I will be checking it now. However, your stuff that is U.S made, still in the sealed cans should still be good. But how do we know?

Larry Gibson

[Uncle Grinch]

After I had one of my 30-06 cases split during a vintage service rifle match, I pulled the balance of the ammo. Some was ball powder and others were stick, Quite a few had a wet look to the powder. It was clotted up and almost slimey. The outside looked good with no suspicious anomolies.

[Argentino]

Larry,

I understand that you had that issue with some argentinean milsurp ammo. If that´s the case, I´m afraid is not uncommon at all: a lot of similar situations are commonly seen over here as well, since we have a lot of milsurp ammo available for our 1891 and 1909 military Mauser rifles. I´ve seen for sale some 7,65 x 54 mm. milsurp ammo manufactured during the late 40´s! Some of those will shoot just fine, some others will experience the same issues you had.

As long as I understand, powder decomposition is the cause of that problem. When decomposing, it corrodes the cases and the FMJ bullets as well just the way they are in your pictures. Argentinean military powders are not particular uniform from batch to batch and not particularly stable as time goes by; they tend to decompose that way after several years. However, it will also depend on how those rounds were stored during the last 30, 40 or even 60+ years; we may have been taking good care of those rounds during the last few years but who knows how they were stored during the first 10, 20 or even 30 years since they were manfactured? I guess that ammo storage conditions also plays an important role regarding powder decomposition too.

In here, when buying a real old batch of 7.65 x 54mm. milsurp ammo, is a common practice among civilian gun owners to take apart each round in order to discard the powder and to save both the cases and the FMJ bullets. We hear very often of those issues with old milsurp ammo. Split cases, higher than expected pressures and bullets lodged in the barrel do not happen all the time but are not uncommon either.

p.s.
I remember a guy who once told me that he couldn´t sleep for a couple of nights because of some sizzling noise whose origin he could not identify. Turned out to be that the sizzling was gas escaping from the cases of several 7,65 x 54 milsurp ammo that he had bought some time ago. Of course, he took apart those rounds and he only saved the cases and the FMJ bullets since the powder was mostly rotten.

[tygar]

Uber7mm

Yes some of those 7.65 bullets were very hard to pull which may very well have raised the pressure.

Tygar

Don't know what to tell you except I also have a "stash". I will be checking it now. However, your stuff that is U.S made, still in the sealed cans should still be good. But how do we know?

Larry Gibson

Sh.......

[Pirate69]

May I suggest the following may be occurring.

The nitrocellulose is decomposing to generate the acetate radical. This may be the result of moisture entering the case.

C₆H₈(NO₂)₂O₅ + H₂O =3CH₃COOH + 2NO₂
The NO₂ is a reddish-brown colored gas that has a sharp, biting odor. I have read where our members have opened powder cans and found the gas and the “bad” smell. If there is moisture present, the NO₂ will react with the water and form nitric acid.

NO₂ + H₂O = 2HNO₃ + NO (In your nose as well, the biting odor)

There is elemental copper present in the case. Dilute nitric acid will react with copper and oxidize it to the +2 valence state.

Cu⁰ = Cu⁺² + 2e^-
3Cu⁰ + 8HNO₃ = 3Cu⁺² + 2NO + 4H₂0 + 6NO^-3
The copper will then react with the acetic acid to form Copper(II) Acetate. This is a greenish colored solid material that is seen on the brass and bullets. Copper Acetate is used as a catalyst and oxidizing agent. This may enhance further reactions.

Cu⁺² + 2CH₃COOH = Cu(CH₃COO)₂ + 4H₂ (Slight gas pressure in the case from the hydrogen?)
Just my guess as to what may be occurring.

[tygar]

May I suggest the following may be occurring.

The nitrocellulose is decomposing to generate the acetate radical. This may be the result of moisture entering the case.

C₆H₈(NO₂)₂O₅ + H₂O =3CH₃COOH + 2NO₂
The NO₂ is a reddish-brown colored gas that has a sharp, biting odor. I have read where our members have opened powder cans and found the gas and the “bad” smell. If there is moisture present, the NO₂ will react with the water and form nitric acid.

NO₂ + H₂O = 2HNO₃ + NO (In your nose as well, the biting odor)

There is elemental copper present in the case. Dilute nitric acid will react with copper and oxidize it to the +2 valence state.

Cu⁰ = Cu⁺² + 2e^-
3Cu⁰ + 8HNO₃ = 3Cu⁺² + 2NO + 4H₂0 + 6NO^-3
The copper will then react with the acetic acid to form Copper(II) Acetate. This is a greenish colored solid material that is seen on the brass and bullets. Copper Acetate is used as a catalyst and oxidizing agent. This may enhance further reactions.

Cu⁺² + 2CH₃COOH = Cu(CH₃COO)₂ + 4H₂ (Slight gas pressure in the case from the hydrogen?)
Just my guess as to what may be occurring.

You may suggest all you want but all of that is "Greek" to me! I'm just a guy with an "ology" degree who barely squeeked thru algebra & geometry.

[Pirate69]

Basically, I am saying that the powder is decomposing to generate two compounds of interest. One is conditioning the brass and the other is reacting with the brass, after conditioning, to generate the copper acetate. I have read about this before but had never considered what was really happening.

I have also read that a trick used by people pulling old military rounds was to seat them a few thousandths deeper to break any corrosion bond. This may help to eliminate any pressure concerns if the rounds are to be fired rather than disassembled.

[WallyM3]

May I suggest the following may be occurring.

The nitrocellulose is decomposing to generate the acetate radical. This may be the result of moisture entering the case.

C₆H₈(NO₂)₂O₅ + H₂O =3CH₃COOH + 2NO₂
The NO₂ is a reddish-brown colored gas that has a sharp, biting odor. I have read where our members have opened powder cans and found the gas and the “bad” smell. If there is moisture present, the NO₂ will react with the water and form nitric acid.

NO₂ + H₂O = 2HNO₃ + NO (In your nose as well, the biting odor)

There is elemental copper present in the case. Dilute nitric acid will react with copper and oxidize it to the +2 valence state.

Cu⁰ = Cu⁺² + 2e^-
3Cu⁰ + 8HNO₃ = 3Cu⁺² + 2NO + 4H₂0 + 6NO^-3
The copper will then react with the acetic acid to form Copper(II) Acetate. This is a greenish colored solid material that is seen on the brass and bullets. Copper Acetate is used as a catalyst and oxidizing agent. This may enhance further reactions.

Cu⁺² + 2CH₃COOH = Cu(CH₃COO)₂ + 4H₂ (Slight gas pressure in the case from the hydrogen?)
Just my guess as to what may be occurring.

Now I got it!

Well, not really, but it looks like there's a chemically understandable reaction taking place.

Is there a way to prevent deterioration or perhaps identify likely occurrances?

[Larry Gibson]

Argentino

Thank you for the very good reply. That's what's great about this site; we have members everywhere

Makes a lot of sense to me. I have a very nice M91 rifle and a very nice M1909 in original configuration. I also have 2 other M91s that were "sporterized" to sell here years ago. I call one "Evita" and the other "Juan" for obvious reasons. Evita is a real shooter in scout configuration and is a prized rifle of mine. I also have converted a M91 by rebarreling it to 35 Remington and it is an excellent cast bullet hunting rifle. The 7.65 is an excellent cartridge and I've been enjoying it for years. A pleasure to chat with you.

Larry Gibson

Attachment 96585

[Larry Gibson]

May I suggest the following may be occurring.

The nitrocellulose is decomposing to generate the acetate radical. This may be the result of moisture entering the case.

C₆H₈(NO₂)₂O₅ + H₂O =3CH₃COOH + 2NO₂
The NO₂ is a reddish-brown colored gas that has a sharp, biting odor. I have read where our members have opened powder cans and found the gas and the “bad” smell. If there is moisture present, the NO₂ will react with the water and form nitric acid.

NO₂ + H₂O = 2HNO₃ + NO (In your nose as well, the biting odor)

There is elemental copper present in the case. Dilute nitric acid will react with copper and oxidize it to the +2 valence state.

Cu⁰ = Cu⁺² + 2e^-
3Cu⁰ + 8HNO₃ = 3Cu⁺² + 2NO + 4H₂0 + 6NO^-3
The copper will then react with the acetic acid to form Copper(II) Acetate. This is a greenish colored solid material that is seen on the brass and bullets. Copper Acetate is used as a catalyst and oxidizing agent. This may enhance further reactions.

Cu⁺² + 2CH₃COOH = Cu(CH₃COO)₂ + 4H₂ (Slight gas pressure in the case from the hydrogen?)
Just my guess as to what may be occurring.

Got it.....probably a good guess.........

I ask for it didn't I............

Thanks for the technical explanation.

Larry Gibson

[Wolfer]

May I suggest the following may be occurring.

The nitrocellulose is decomposing to generate the acetate radical. This may be the result of moisture entering the case.

C₆H₈(NO₂)₂O₅ + H₂O =3CH₃COOH + 2NO₂
The NO₂ is a reddish-brown colored gas that has a sharp, biting odor. I have read where our members have opened powder cans and found the gas and the “bad” smell. If there is moisture present, the NO₂ will react with the water and form nitric acid.

NO₂ + H₂O = 2HNO₃ + NO (In your nose as well, the biting odor)

There is elemental copper present in the case. Dilute nitric acid will react with copper and oxidize it to the +2 valence state.

Cu⁰ = Cu⁺² + 2e^-
3Cu⁰ + 8HNO₃ = 3Cu⁺² + 2NO + 4H₂0 + 6NO^-3
The copper will then react with the acetic acid to form Copper(II) Acetate. This is a greenish colored solid material that is seen on the brass and bullets. Copper Acetate is used as a catalyst and oxidizing agent. This may enhance further reactions.

Cu⁺² + 2CH₃COOH = Cu(CH₃COO)₂ + 4H₂ (Slight gas pressure in the case from the hydrogen?)
Just my guess as to what may be occurring.

I don't remember covering this in school but I got drafted before I finished the third grade.

[jonk]

I bought a whole can of this ammo knowing it had these issues, probably close to 900 rounds. I found in pulling it down that about half was perfectly fine, half looked just like what you have here.

I put the pull down powder in an empty powder can, works fine for cast loads... at least the pull down that wasn't nasty looking.

The bullets I tossed in the tumbler with some mineral spirits for an hour, they cleaned up fine and still shoot fine.

The brass is either going to be scrapped or reprimed if I want to bother with the berdans.

[390ish]

I have a tin of WWII era Soviet 7.62x54r ammo that gave it necks and very difficult extraction. Only fired about 4 rounds. I need to pull some rounds and see what the powder and bullets look like.

[Huffmanite]

FWIW, my commet about surplus 7.65 argentine ammo is based on some made in the 1940s, I'd bought back in the later 1960s to shoot in my 91 argentine sporterized rifle. Used Norma ammo back then for deer hunting. Maybe 6 years ago, opened up a storage box and came across some of this old surplus ammo, long forgotten about. Hmmmm, examined the ammo, seriously doubting it was any good. Noticed something about the neck of the brass on some of the rounds I didn't like. I could grip the bullet/neck of brass and break it off at the shoulder with my hands....brass had corroded thru from the inside. I supposerd it was the corrosive primers that caused the corrosion. I destroyed all the rounds.

[MT2DAY]

What is the best way to get rid of degraded power besides burning?