A few muzzle loader questions

[Rick4570]

My brother and my son recently got into muzzle loaders, and I tag along as often as I can when they go shooting. Seems there is a lot of advice concerning accurate loads (patched roundballs) requiring fairly anemic powder charges. Brother is shooting a custom made .54 flintlock and Son is shooting a .50 cal CVA kit built. I remember reading an article a while back that stated, that for cals. up to about .60, hunting loads should run about 2 grains per caliber. After lots of fiddleing around for a few weekends, they could only get acceptable accuracy w/ reduced loads of around 70 grns. They did experiment w/different patch thicknesses and lubes, but things stayed about the same. After thinking about this for a bit, I suggested that they use max loads (100 grns. Goex 2f in the .50 and 110 of the same in the .54) add 20 grains of cornmeal on top the powder charge and then patch and ball. So, no burned patches, one hole groups at 25 yards and 2 to 4 inch groups at 100 with both rifles are the norm now. I came up w/ this after reading somewhere that the old timers would use some crumpled up paper wasp nest as an over powder wad. We did try lubed felt patches, and had good accuracy results, but the patches were burned, which indicates to me a less than perfect seal, although I think that for the one or two shots fired while hunting would be fine. Is there another way to skin this cat besides using a filler over the top of the powder? I find I'm getting sucked into this ML thing, like I need yet another bad habit! BTW, my son killed a nice antelope buck last weekend at 118 measured yards with his .50.
Regards, Rick

[mooman76]

Rick,

First off 2 grains per cal. is too much. The manual states how much is max. Unles it is a magnum which I don't think you are talking about. 70g sounds about right for the CVA, I have several and I usually only shoot about 50g. But max is around 80 or 90 but I am not sure. You could try a different lube to prevent burned patches or even different cloth. You didn't say what you were useing. A little burned is ok but you don't want burned through. Yes they did use wasp nest. For some reason something about it doesn't burn out.
By the way the rule of thumb is 1g per cal. and 1/2 in pistol calibers. This also by the way is just a starting point and every gun will find it's own that it likes. Bp and substitutes burn slow and at a certain point the powder will be burning outside the barrel.
It seems like you are on the right track though so keep trying different things and you will work it out!

[waksupi]

In .50 cal., I generally found my plinking loads to be around 60 gr. 3f. And, for hunting loads, between 90-110 gr. 3f, depending on twist. In .54, plinking load around 60-75 gr. 3f, and for hunting, between 110-130 3f.
The wasp nest reference you read, related to shotguns, and not rifles. Don't use a filler in ML rifles. If you need them, the rifle is telling you that you are not loading it correctly.
Get rid of the lubed felt wads. They are probably lubed with Bore Butter, another travesty visited upon the world of pilgrim black powder shooters. They will not seal a rifle barrel well enough. I believe they are intended for C&B revolvers, to prevent crossfires, and not as a bore sealer. Get some striped pillow ticking material, wash the starch out of it, use a lube, one part water soluble machinist oil, to 10-12 parts water. If you have good eyes, you should be able to get the hundred yard groups down to around an inch.

[Underclocked]

Rick, I think you have tried everything I could suggest. What is the problem with using the cornmeal filler? You could get a couple of cheap plastic power flasks and cut the snout to deliver the right volume of cornmeal per throw - then use those exclusively for the meal. Adds a step to the reloading process but this isn't exactly a high speed reloaders game anyway.

I don't think you would even need to cut this one http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/35664-12849-473.html

[Moose]

Don't be so down on felt wads - and don't be so keen on patch lube based on water (or spit). After all, you are supposed to "keep your powder dry" and that does not mean shoving a damp cloth patch down on top of it. Furthermore, if you leave it in bore for more than a very few minutes, it rusts. We all "know" that old timers used spit patches, right? Better read Ned Roberts work "The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle" . As far as wads go, either I cut my own from piano felt or buy same from Circle Fly. For wad lube I use a home made goo composed of neatsfoot oil and beeswax. Duty of a bp wad is to Seal the bore: Protect the patch/sabot ( a patch is a form of sabot); Soften the fouling, and Swab the bore. Corn meal makes fine grits and pone.

And "More is not necessarily Better". I have never had the most accurate load as the most powerful one.

[Underclocked]

Corn meal and Cream of Wheat have been used with success as a buffer for a very long time, so you might want to give them a try Moose. I use dry nitro-card wads, 1/8" thick, in my of my loads but I shoot heavy conicals for the most part. (get them from TOTW but I think they are also Circle Fly manufacture). Cheap too.

[Blammer]

I guess I'm the odd man out. I use 1000 plus nitro lube on my patches and a RB. I use 80 gr of FFg for my 50 cal and it does a great job with RB and the 333gr Maxi's I cast.

As long as the patch is not burned through you are good to go. I have used bore butter to season, preserve and on some patches for 10 yrs or more and not had any problems. I can't for the life of me find out what everyone is talking about when they say bore butter is bad. Oh well.. to each his own.

I think when I chono'ed my RB with 80 gr of ffg I was getting 1600 fps... If I remember correctly. and a bit slower with 333gr maxi's with the same charge. Anyways, the 80 gr of FFg is good enough with the maxi to push it through 36" of deer at 50 yards or so. That's what it did to my 9pt a few years ago.

[waksupi]

My point on fillers, it is an extra step, that shouldn't be necessary.
My comments on Bore Butter, and related lubes, is from personal experince. In this dry climate, the barrel fouls terribly within a dozen shots in the summer, and in the winter, you are lucky to get 4-5 shots, before the barrel is so fouled that loading is impossible.

[omgb]

OK, at the risk of sounding like a poop, I'm gonna tell you what has worked for me for over 30 years. I shoot round balls using pure cotton patches, usually out of pillow ticking but I've used old sheets too. I load between 90 and 110 grains of 2F behind the RB in my 50 and about 65 grains in my 58 cal musket. For lube, I use SPG but honestly, I do that because I have a lot of it. For 20 of those 30 years I used Crisco, plain and simple, Crisco. It worked very well. Patches don't burn through, bores don't rust and fouling is never an issue until I get to shot number 5 or 6. I wipe once with a damp patch, then once more with a dry patch and I'm as good as new.

Felt wads and fillers are just an unneccessary step as far as I'm concerned. I can get 1" groups at 75 yards, clover leafs at 50 and nice tight 2" groups at 100. That's the best my eyes can do.

[Underclocked]

I used plain ol' Crisco for lube on my conicals for a long time. It's only drawback, in my experience, was that it gets awfully messy in warm weather. Fouling was soft, reloading easy, and accuracy was better than adequate while using Crisco.

Afraid I'm not a fan of the patch and roundball at all. When I started my muzzleloading adventures about 35 years ago, I was learning in what amounted to a vacuum so far as information/instruction was concerned. I might have quickly developed better roundball results if there had been anything like the resources available to today's beginners. But maxi-balls and Crisco gave me accuracy and kept me going.

It's sort of funny that high-tech internet forums can turn absolute beginners into competent muzzleloader shooters/users with just a few hours of reading, paying attention, asking questions, and a bit of experimentation. That may be a slight exaggeration - but not much of one. Recently had opportunity to coach an absolute beginner in muzzleloader land from rifle choice to shooting consistent and accurate 100 yard groups within about two weeks time. Doing that without ever meeting the guy is mind-blowing.

Things have most certainly changed in this as well as most all things.

[testhop]

first off try 2f in the 50 i use 60 or 70 gr 2f iwas awaystold 3f ut 45 cal 50 ald above use 2f
you need to work up loads for both power and acceracyso try differnt power wt. same with patchs some like 10 thousand some like 20 thou and some like something in betwine
try differnt lubbes also
check what twist barrel you have is it a round ball barrel 1 in 66 inchs ora maxie 1i in
36 or 1 in 28 it can be a1in 48 witch for both r.b. and maxie
noone can tell you what to use only the gun
being you talk of patches i asoume you are talking about round ball my favoret ihave used 90 grs 2f for hunting and 65grs for target shooting iuse simple green to clean the barrel afetr 2 shots yours may need more often or less make sure you dry the barrel out beforeyou load it again

and rember black powder is habit forming once you start theres no turning back

[Blkpwdrbuff]

Rick, you have received a lot of good advice here. Follow it.
Also, try balls of .495 and .535 diameter. Some rifles like the larger balls.
I have been shooting muzzleloaders for 13+years and it's about all I hunt deer with.
I'm in a blackpowder club and we have shoots and rendevous several times a year.
My target load is 50 grs. FFFg with a 490 ball and .018 patch lubed with saliva. I can get around 30 -40 shots before I need to clean.
My hunting load is 90 grs FFFg with a 370 gr. Maxi-Ball. This is in a T/C Hawken .50 cal.
The deer I shot this year( with a home cast Maxi-Ball!!!!) dropped in his tracks. When I skinned him out it looked like he had been shot with a Hi-Powered rifle. The blood shot areas behind his shoulder and on the neck were huge.
These guns are a blast and very very addicting.
Blkpwdrbuff

[Rick4570]

Thanks for all the replys! Looks like we have a lot of things to try.
Regards, Rick

[Rattus58]

Rick.... experiment with powders by volume. That 2 grains per caliber you were talking about were generally meant to be MAXIMUM loads for guns.

Aloha...