I need some help figuring this out

[billdean]

A little back ground first. I cast my bullet with 2 to 1 mix of pure lead and hardball. I size them to .460. I shoot a 1895 Marlin 45/70. I have 2 lubes I have made and are trying them out. Felix and Ben's Red. I believe both to be very good lubes from all I have read.

Test fired the Felix first out of a clean barrel. I am using 42.5gr of IMR4198 with a 430gr bullet cast with a Accurate mold 46-430V mold. It comes out of my rifle at an average of 1800fps. I was extremely happy with the results. At 50 yd my 5 shot group was 1 1/4".

Test fired Ben's Red right after without cleaning the barrel. My 5 shot group was at best 2". I had a couple of rounds that did not crony so I want to try Ben's Red again. After carefully measuring each charge on my balance beam I proceeded to load up another 5 rounds. I shot all 5 any was disappointed in the results. They were all over the place. My first thought was the lube so I decide to try Felix again.

I carefully loaded up 5 more rounds and lubed them with Felix lube. I was very disappointed with the results. There were 3 holes touching and 2 flyers. The flyers were 5" away in different direction. They crony-ed all over the place from 1500 to 1829fps.

I have noticed the barrel is shiny clean all the way through the bore except the last 1" or so. Then there is some gray streaks at the very end. I run a patch down it with Sweets bore cleaner and it don't appear to be lead. At least the patch does not turn green. Is it possible the bullets need to be sized smaller? Maybe my rifle just likes a clean bore? Why would the rounds crony all over the place when they have all way avg so close? I have shot more then 50 rounds of jacketed bullets through the bore with no problems. I could sure use some help here. I believe I made the lube good especially the Felix. Is there something wrong? I will try a clean bore after each lube and go from there.

After reading some I do have some leading of the barrel. When I put a patch down the barrel I have fine pieces of lead.

[btroj]

Changing lubes requires 10 or so shots to let the new lube reach a "steady state" in the barrel.

The grey at the muzzle is anthony wash. High antimony alloys can leave that light grey film on the bore. It is not leading.

For a good test shoot 5 rounds from a clean bore. Then shoot a couple 5 shot groups. Then clean the bore well and repeat with the other lube.

That's how you compare lubes in a fair manner. You may also need to make small adjustments in powder charge.

[billdean]

Thank you for this info. I did not realize you could not shoot lubes back to back or the bore had to reach a "Steady State". Here is a pic of the patch from my rifle.

[btroj]

Only see tiny specks of lead. Small enough to ignore. Or at lesst they may be lead specks, hard to tell for certain. The black is typical powder and lube fouling.

Even changing powders can lead to odd groups for a few rounds til the bore condition stabilizes. Each shot leaves some residue, that residue needs to be consistant for est grouping. The lube change means that the first few shots are in a bore with changing conditions.

[billdean]

Only see tiny specks of lead. Small enough to ignore. Or at lesst they may be lead specks, hard to tell for certain. The black is typical powder and lube fouling.

Even changing powders can lead to odd groups for a few rounds til the bore condition stabilizes. Each shot leaves some residue, that residue needs to be consistant for est grouping. The lube change means that the first few shots are in a bore with changing conditions.

They are lead specks. After searching and read what leading is I would say it is minimal.

[runfiverun]

I have seen it take from 7 to 11 shots from a clean barrel to get lube to the muzzle.
quite often one lube following another is not going to give you good results.
if you flip them in order they will shoot fine [shrug]
sometimes it don't matter.

[leftiye]

Saturate a patch with your lube and apply it to the bore before shooting a clean bore.

[grampa243]

this is the same thing that happens with 22 rimfire. the match shooters that i shoot with in a winter postal league don't clean their bores for the whole season (21 weeks) and only shoot one brand in the the gun for the fact that lube and powder change can mess with grouping and POA.

[10 Spot Terminator]

This would explain a lot in my cast bullet tests I have done in my .38 Spl. lately . Not only different lubes but have tried different alloys as well . I will try to get my barrel to stabilize with a particular lube before firing for performance testing. I have been using 3 different lubes alternating back and forth with one great group followed by a less than stellar performance with the same load at a later time . I could not figure out the variable . I have a bunch of different bullets lubed and stockpiled and was having some leading issues so opted to make some 411 lube and actually went and added 10% more beeswax and 1% Carnuba to stiffen up the lube as was too soft and to get the bore cleaning characteristic Carnuba is known for . So far I can say both have been quite successful in the initial test firings but I will try again with longer sessions using the same lubes to get accurate performance results . I should have guessed this having shot moly in high powered rifle and documented the same nuance as mentioned here with different lubes . I will set up my chrony this next round as well . This may show results as did with using moly as to how each one tends to affect bullet performance . I will let you know how this turns out guys.

10 Spot

[41 mag fan]

Billdean...try what run suggests on here. Clean your bore real good. then load a minimum of 10 rds per test of what you're using.
I have been fiddling with My Browning 45-70, and cleaned the bore, went out and my first 5 rounds were everywhere 3"+ on the group.
I believe that was at 46gr 3031. I should of loaded 10, but I was experimenting and didn't want to load up anymore.
My next 5 settled in with 1 flyer due to a da*n buffalo gnat up my nose just as i pulled the trigger,I flinched. IIRC my 4 on this test settled in at 1.70" . 47gr 3031
My next set of 5 grouped at 1.010" IIRC, I'd have to look at my targets I take notes on. But it was barely over 1". 48gr of 3031
But one thing is you need to control your control groups into one study....finish those control groups....like lets say all shots with Bens Red....
Clean your bore, load extras to condition your bore with for example Felix,
Then Start your test groups again.
Changing 1 thing like the lube will change the whole control groups, or for that matter, even the primer will and need to be started over with.

Good luck on your testing. I'll be curious to your finding, as I got a Marlin 1895, at the gunsmiths, getting slicked up, that i'll be starting on sometime in the near future. Before going to the smiths, I had found Varget showing a very good promise on loads.

[billdean]

I have been shooting Felix lube for a few days now with good results since I cleaned and re-seasoned my barrel. The temps here in Alaska have been in the 70's for a week and Felix lube seems to work well. I will be interested to see how it preforms cooler/colder weather. I will be testing Ben's Red here in the coming days. Before I start I will clean and season my barrel with Ben's lube before shooting for groups. At the present I am shooting 42g of IMR 4198 with 430 boolits. It has been preforming well with that load. I would like to try 3031 but powder here in Alaska is hard to come by as I suspect it is else were. My main goal is to find a lube that will preforms well in the weather I encountered in Alaska. I just received some TAC 1 and will be testing it also.

[runfiverun]

if you are lube testing 70-f isn't the weather to do it in.
crayons and some kind of oil will work at 70.
it's below 40 and above 90 you have to worry about lube ingredients being a factor [unless it's dripping wet]
just pick the lube with a soft malleability to it that feathers between your fingers well.
it should have a slight grab to it and leave a slight amount of glide behind on your fingers.
a little tacky to it when you touch it doesn't hurt.

[41 mag fan]

Does it get above 90 in Alaska where he could test lubes like that Run?

[billdean]

Does it get above 90 in Alaska where he could test lubes like that Run?

No 90* weather were I live. Does hit 80 about 2 days a year though.