45-70 all over the paper...

[blwngazkit]

I've been having some difficulty with my rifle (1885 High-Wall by C-Sharps) grouping 18-20" at 100 yards. I've established that it's not me as other shooters can't get it to group any better.

I'm using my reloads using hardcast 405gr lead @ .458 and between 30 & 38 grains of 4198. I don't have a chronograph so I don't have any info on velocities.

My current thoughts are the .458 lead is undersized; I can take a fired case and (after removing any leftover crimp) a bullet will slide right in without any force. Obviously I need to do a chamber cast or slug the bore...


Can a bullet that's undersized like this really result in groups of these sizes? I'm pretty worried as I've never encountered an issue like this.

I posted this over on AR15 and they directed me here... The consensus is I need to slug my bore and see what I'm working with for bore size.

My question now is I've got 400 or so bullets left that are sized at .458; I bought these before I really had a clue what I needed. Can these bullets with the lube grooves be paperpatched or otherwise bumped up in size to work with a larger bore?

[knifemaker]

I'll try to answer part of your questions. Offhand I would say there is a very good chance your bullets are undersize for your barrel. The majority of 45/70s I have used like a bullets of around .460 in dia. for best accuracy. Yes you should slug your bore and determine groove dia. and size your bullets 1-2 thousand over that barrel groove dia.

On my current 45/70 I size my cast bullets to .460 and use 43 gr. of IMR-4198 with a Ranchdog 350 gr. GC bullet for about 1800fps and 3 shot groups at 100 yards that measure 1 inch. With my rifle, those groups will open up at .459 and to my surprise, will also open up if I size to .461.

slugg your barrel and find a cast bullet maker that will sell you cast bullets sized to fit your bore if you do not cast yourself.

[MT Chambers]

If your bullets are indeed "undersized" then the hard cast will make it even worst, as they won't swage up to fit the barrel either.

[MtGun44]

Try softer and bigger.

Bill

[1bluehorse]

Yep, slug the bore. Try a bullet (cast) a thou or two over that size and see where you're at...have you shot any factory jacketed stuff for a comparison?? I would also start a little closer, say 50yds, for group. Your load of 4198 is quite a bit less than what I load with the same bullet (Lee 405gr...412 actual). and a bullet SHOULD slip easily into a fired case (before the case is resized), that's why we resize them..

Get back to us on the bore size, and the results from some factory jacketed rounds. There's an answer for the issues you're having, just need to take it one step at a time..

[blwngazkit]

I'm going to slug the bore this evening when I get home.

IF I am undersized with the .458, what can I do with the bullets I already have?

[ku4hx]

I'm going to slug the bore this evening when I get home.

IF I am undersized with the .458, what can I do with the bullets I already have?

I had that problem years ago and I ended up melted and casting with a different mold. Gives whole new meaning to the phrase "Bite the bullet". I also stopped using the mold that habitually threw undersized boolits.

[runfiverun]

make other ones from them.

[joec]

Here are some egg shaped sinker sizes that will work for different calibers. In the case for a 45-70 use the #8 and flatten it out in a vise to make it bigger than the barrel. Start from the muzzle and drive it through the barrel to the breach using a wooden dowel or brass rod with a heavy hammer. Also be sure the sinkers are lead and not an alloy and lube them before doing it with some kind of grease or oil.

Lead sinker sizes for checking gun bores

Size 10
For use in .270, 7mm, and .30 Calibers

Size 9
For use in .338, .348, 38/.357, and 35 Calibers

Size 8
For use in .41, .44, .45, and .475 Calibers

The corresponding weights:
Size 10 - 1/8oz
Size 9 - 1/4oz
Size 8 - 3/8oz

[308Man]

I agree bigger sounds better. I shoot a 458 win mag and use a 459 over a 457 or 458. Works better.

[rintinglen]

You can bump up soft boolits a thousandth or two, provided you have a lubrisizer that can stand the strain. (Lyman 45 need not apply.) Simply install a sizer of the size you need, and adjust the depth setting on the internal ram so that your down ward stroke squashes the boolit enough to swell out.

TWO Things.
This is hard on the Press, don't make a habit of it.
Don't try it with commercially-cast, water-quenched or heat-treated boolits. They require more force than your press can stand.

[WHITETAIL]

#1 slug the bore.
#2 boolet needs to be 1-2 thou. over bore.
#3 If you don't have any boolets that size,
ask on here and someone will send you afew.

[MT Gianni]

I get the feeling that this is a buyer of cast rather than a caster. There are custom bullet makers that will sell you whatever hardness you need and diameter as well. I think with those pressures you should be much closer to bhn 8 pure lead than hardcast. It is the wrong time to give this advice, but buy a box of factory loads if you can find them and see how they group.

[Kansas Ed]

One thing I've done with some bullets which were about .003 under what I needed. I found a metal bushing which just happened to be .4095 inside diameter, it was just the right length to cover all of the driving bands and lube. (I needed bullets which were bigger than bore size .4085, and the bullets I got were advertised as .408, but which were actually .406). I sat the bushing on my arbor press in the garage, dropped in a bullet and a light bump press swaged the bullet to .4095 Then just popped them out with a pencil eraser. It does deform the nose slightly fatter, but they shoot well in my 40-82. It was a handy solution as we happened to have a bushing laying around which was the right ID. But it may not be the solution you are looking for.

Ed

[detox]

Check for leading in the barrel and remove. Use a soft lube like SPG and softer alloy (I use 20/1). You should see a lube star at end of muzzle after firing. I like the RCBS 500 grain mould (AS CAST) in my Browning 1885 BPCR. Maybe a fiberwad will help using smokeless...i do not know.

[blwngazkit]

OK, update time.

I slugged the bore and I'm coming up with either .4585 or .4590 depending on pressure and groove measured.

So it definitely sounds like I'm undersized.


Where can I go from here? Here's what I've done and what I have available:

Bought the rifle and shot some Remington Factory jacketed loads at 50yds, the grouping was mediocre but it was also my first time shooting the rifle.

I did some reading, not enough, and bought the .458 hardcast bullets I have now and began reloading. I'm loading the 405gr bullets seated to the crimp groove with a moderate crimp. I've tried between 30 & 38 grains of 4198 as I found the data in the Lyman manual and started about middle of the road powder-wise. I never encountered any signs of leading, but the groups are ALWAYS horrible; in the ~8" rang at 50 yards and much larger at 100 yards.

I have a solid reloading setup, but I don't currently have the equipment (or money since I have my 1st child due in 2 months) to start casting. I'd like to, but I simply can't yet. Until I can start casting my own, I'm stuck with buying bullets from somewhere, apparently I need softer lead vs the hardcast I was originally reading about.

Seeing as my bore seems to be coming in at .459, I should be looking for a bullet at .460 correct? What options / where should I go from here? I have many .458 3-lube groove bullets already in hand; I suppose I could just stick them on a shelf until I get some equipment to melt them down.

I'm not opposed, even mildly intrigued, to paper patching. Would this be beneficial to me or should I try something else?

I need some help with a direction here...

[runfiverun]

paper patching isn't gonna work for you either.
you need to size them to bore diameter then patch to groove or slightly over groove diameter.

you could try using a lighter load in the 1200 fps range and explore a filler of sorts such as cream of wheat.

i really hope you meant 3031 and not 4198 in your origional post.
i would try 21.5 grs of 4198 to start and just enough cream of wheat to seat the boolit on top of the cereal with some slight compression.
if you have 3031 i'd try 31 grs to start and the cereal filler.
i would make and shoot them within a short period of time and not let them sit around.

[knifemaker]

Runfiverun;
I do not understand your statement about his use of IMR-4198 powder in his late model Hi-Wall. That model of Hi-wall has sufficent strenght to safely support the use of 38gr. of that powder. Could you be confusing his late model Hi-wall with that of a early model, 1800's, Hi-wall that is not as strong as the modern reproduction models are? Ken Waters in his "Pet Loads" lists a max of 39 gr. of 4198 for a 405 gr. bullet in the older original Winchester case harden hi-walls. For a modern reproduction & Winchester blue steel he lists a max of 42 gr. with the same 405 gr. bullet.

[Dusty Bannister]

Given that he has shown this is a slightly undersized hard bullet, but not severely leading, anyone giving consideration to either the CFVentures soft gas check or an inverted conventional gas check under the base of the bullet, to get a good seal and have at least some hope of this hard alloy bullet filling the grooves of the barrel? Dusty

[MtGun44]

You will want .002 over groove diam, so you need .460, like many do.
Those hard commercial ones will melt nicely and mixed with about equal amount
of pure lead will be about right.

Bill