Secret to making better more accurate bullets!

[BT Sniper]

Yes powder. Lemi-shine or powdered citric acid is what you want.

I don't see anywhere mention of a gallon of water. Maybe that is what people are using in a rotery tumbler? and maybe Duke mentions it in his video?

In my vibrating brass tumbler I barly use any water at all. Just enough to make it damp.

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

I place the brass in my rotary tumbler tube, and then pour the stainless steel media in. Then I pour in the citric acid crystals, and a teaspoon of dish detergent. Finally, I fill the rest of the tube with hot water. It's more than a gallon.

When I do the ceramic media, in the vibratory tumbler, I use the same "damp only" method you use, Brian. But I only use that for the finished bullets.

Yes powder. Lemi-shine or powdered citric acid is what you want.

I don't see anywhere mention of a gallon of water. Maybe that is what people are using in a rotery tumbler? and maybe Duke mentions it in his video?

In my vibrating brass tumbler I barly use any water at all. Just enough to make it damp.

BT

[Del-Ray]

Sorry, I use the 4T to one gallon of hot water to just clean brass prior to vibrating clean.

Is this also like any other media, that you can use it multiple times before adding more acid or soap?

And should you clean the BBs and ceramic in fresh water and dry if you intend long storage before re-use?

Thanks again. I'm making more 40-60 brass while I wait fer my dies.

[RP]

Well again reading post here get me to thinking and tinkering. So I picked up a treadmill this past weekend after some tinkering its now a brass cleaner. I use most of the treadmill just added some rubber to drive roller for grip. I did some searches and saw a water bottle being used for a drum. So I grabbed the one I had tossed in some brass water lemi-shine a chunk of copper. My media that I was testing is used primers yep that is right used primers. Ran it for thirty mins and could see some good results. I had to put it on hold for awhile so I let it sit. So I got to thinking maybe its the plating on the BBs and not just copper so the pennies I dumped out of the bottle went into the mix. Ran that for awhile now my jackets are getting a nice copper look to them. So all that being said not sure whats going on with the mix but I like the results. Thanks for sharing the trick with us BT.

[MGG]

I have also used spent primers as poor mans steel media. It worked well for me to bring some old range brass back from the dead. My only suggestion is to not use primers that will fit in the brass's primer pockets. I found that out the hard way and had to de prime most of the brass twice.

[R.Ph. 380]

I'm one who has invested and is barely weathering the wait to receive my swaging dies for .224 from Brian. As it gets closer, I find myself doing things to be ready for when they get here. So in light of this information here's how I spent the day and what I learned:

BUSTED:

Well, today was a day off work and I had big plans. Wife was gone to Fort Worth.(That's another whole day's story). So I have these approximately 3,000 22LR expended cases which are just crying out to be cleaned and gotten ready to turn into .224 bullets for my AR 15's.

OK, first thing was to get the Ultrasonic cleaner out from the cabinet and charge it with 1 tablespoonfull of Lemi-shine and ½ teaspoonful of Dawn in HOT water. Now it is especially important to not overload the cleaner, so you only clean about 1 cupfull each go-round. Then they have to be rinsed in HOT water in a collander in the sink and put out to dry. (guess what's a better way to dry damp 22lr brass that's handy in a kitchen?) Well, there I was, all alone in the house and not going to be interrupted for a while and I thought, "Why Not?" So, I fired up the ***oven*** to 450 and took a Pyrex baking dish out of the cabinet and put an even layer of brass all over the bottom of the glass.(Good thing Pyrex is tough in addition to being heat resistant.More on this later)

Meanwhile, the oven is still increasing in temperature and I'm cleaning more and more brass in the ultrasonic cleaner. Remember, this has a mixture of Lemi-shine, Dawn and water which has to be changed often due to the extremely dirty residue washed off the tarnished brass and the residue(remember this word) of the gunpowder from their firing. SO,,,, while I am rinsing and washing, rinsing and washing, the oven has reached it's programmed 450 degrees and the brass is basking in the drying atmosphere of the oven. Sort of like John's stories of the Desert he sends 22lr brass into out there in AZ. So as my dog "Bruce"(a black Lab I like to think of as "King of the Scots") and I enjoy a day to ourselves with not a care in the world,,(Now remember up in the previous paragraph when I cautioned you to remember?)

We were startled at a series of reports that sounded suspiciously like 22lr rounds going off in close proximity to the kitchen. Glancing around nervously I noticed a whisp of smoke curling up ftom the Pyrex(remember, well this is later)

I opened the oven door, (probably not the smartest move I could have made at this point) and glanced in just as another """dud""" 22lr """empty""" case let go and announced it's rebirth. Anyone who still believes that you can kill primers or rimfire rounds with water, lemi-shine and Dawn dishwashing soap can now disabuse themselves of that notion. I'm here to tell you that a "dud" round without the bullet in it that has ben soaked and ultrasoniked for an extended time, dried out in the mild warmth of a 450 degree oven will POPwith sufficient force to scatter multiple pieces of 22lr brass from the upper oven to the lower Broiler Oven with alacrity. It will also startle the normal homeowner into releasing the oven door he momentarily opened so that it pops closed to contain said errant brass.

So, judicious use of spatula and soup ladle enabled me to clean up the evidence of my culinary efforts and leave no evidence.............................So I thought. Guess who left the oven light on and who never cooks anything in the oven? Well, as I was returning from my afternoon Dr's appointment, my wife(remember the one who was away in Fort Worth?) Called and asked were you cooking something in the Kitchen today? The light was on in the oven as was the overhead light which we never use, but works well for seeing errant pieces of cleaned 22lr brass hiding around the floor and under the edge of the cabinets. Like I SAID,,,,BUSTED. So laughing I told her the whole episode and restored equilibrium to the day. Funny, I've been banished from the kitchen and the stove. What'sup with dat???????????????????

Bill

[DukeInFlorida]

hahaha... good story!

I had a similar experience with drying them in mesh basket over the gas grill outside on the back deck. I had brass projectiles bouncing off the aluminum lid of the grill left and right.

That was the moment I committed myself to making a ROTARY stainless steel pin media tumbler!


Your washing in lemishine and dawn only cleans some of the surfaces of the .22 brass. My SS pin system REMOVES every trace of the ignition chemical from the brass, and gets rid of nearly 100% of all residue inside and outside of the brass cases.

Now that I have perfectly clean brass, I also dry it in a shallow pan in the kitchen oven, and never fear any more explosions. And, since I live alone, no fear of anyone chastising me for leaving a light on.

My tumbler (in case you missed the previous post) :

[Del-Ray]

Seeing as my post got skipped and lost....

Is it better to rinse out all the soap and acid once you're done tumbling the cored jackets if you won't be using the material for a while?

I picked up a third tumbler just for this, and think leaving everything wet may cause the BBs to corrode. So is it better to clean and dry everything for storage after use?

[taminsong]

Nice story. Same thing also happens to me when I used those dud bullets. Remove the lead and dump the powder then put them in ultrasonic cleaner and dried them in the oven.

They didn't pop in the oven but when I derimmed it, I got a little scared when the priming mix pops up! I thought I busted my derimming die.

I can say that ultrasonic cannot really remove the priming mix inside the case especially if you put a lot of brass in the cleaner. Best solution is the SS pin like Duke in his video. Mine, I used an old washing machine motor connected to a salvaged gear box to run it.

[R.Ph. 380]

Yep, ordered the STM today, Noticed that Harbor freight has a rotating tumbler. May pick one up.

Bill

[DukeInFlorida]

YES!

When I wet tumble, even with the stainless steel pins (btw, the pins are 400 series stainless steel = martensitic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martens...tainless_steel and not 300 stainless steel = austenitic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austenitic_stainless_steel ) , you should rinse well, and dry before putting stuff away. Especially to remove the acid from the Lemishine or citric acid that you would use. The dishwashing detergent would hamper drying abilities by keeping the surface "wetted".

btw, 400 series SS is attracted to a magnet. So, the pins from STM are magnetic. I had one batch that rusted lightly, another reason to keep em dry. I keep a magnet handy when doing the pins, it aids me in picking up pins that jump out of the area I am working in. Five here, and ten there may not seem like many when you are working with thousands in the 5 pound bag.... But they all add up.

I use a Dillon media separator to separate the media from the brass (it was the only model with the slots thin enough to retain .22 LR brass inside the tumbler), and fill the catch basin with clear warm water. The water seems to help with the pin removal from the brass. When all pins have been removed, I dump the skuzzy water, and refill the basin with clean hot water, and run the brass through that for about ten minutes. The pins remain in the bottom of the basin through both rinse cycles, so they get washed well. The brass comes out bright and spotless, inside and out! No grit, no powder residue, all set for de-rimming.

Even the annealing after derimming benefits from the bright shiny cleaning that the ss pins and rotary tumbling provides. Nothing to get baked on (no soap, no powder residue, no nuthing...) during the 850 degree anneal.

So, by all means, YES! Clean everything well, and it will last longer, and also provide you with better swaged bullets.

Seeing as my post got skipped and lost....

Is it better to rinse out all the soap and acid once you're done tumbling the cored jackets if you won't be using the material for a while?

I picked up a third tumbler just for this, and think leaving everything wet may cause the BBs to corrode. So is it better to clean and dry everything for storage after use?

[featherhead]

QUESTION ??? For efficiency shake, and to avoid redundant steps, how about waiting to clean and polish AFTER the cores are seated?

[Lizard333]

I tumble my brass before derimming to get the primer residue out to prevent damage to my dies. Then I anneal the brass. It goes into a bucket of water with citric acid. Then I seat my cores, point form, then I clean and polish in the SS media at the very end.

[featherhead]

I tumble my brass before derimming to get the primer residue out to prevent damage to my dies. Then I anneal the brass. It goes into a bucket of water with citric acid. Then I seat my cores, point form, then I clean and polish in the SS media at the very end.

I follow you on that. Clean the brass BEFORE derimming. I use an ultrasound. After derimming, lube needs to be removed with another washing. Then annealing. BUT after annealing, does it make any sense to wash and polish BEFORE seating the cores? Will the cores seat neatly in an annealed case? Is lube needed for the seating operation?

[Lizard333]

Cores have to be seated in an annealed case. Your going to be expanding the jacket and core to near final diameter in this step. You have to use lube during this step or the jacket will get stuck. A little lube goes a LONG way. The cores must be cleaned prior to seating in the jacket. I rinse my cores in acetone prior to seating them. Seat your cores, then point form. You will have plenty of lube still on your jacket to allow for easy removal from the point form die. No reason to clean between core seating and point forming.

[MIBULLETS]

I follow you on that. Clean the brass BEFORE derimming. I use an ultrasound. After derimming, lube needs to be removed with another washing. Then annealing. BUT after annealing, does it make any sense to wash and polish BEFORE seating the cores? Will the cores seat neatly in an annealed case? Is lube needed for the seating operation?

I ususally clean the jackets to remove the scale from annealling before core seating, some of the scale will come off in the die if you don't. If you core seat without lube you will wear your dies quicker and removing the seated core from the die will be more difficult.

[aaronraad]

Good pick-up BT Sniper! Accurate projectiles don't happen by accident and if they do, it's a very consistent repeatable accident.

I haven't been at swaging very long compared to others but surface finish, lubrication and temperature play a signifcant role on producing the long range high BC variety projectile. The more you're aware of these elements and the more controls you put into place the tighter your projectile tolerances will be. Clean jackets are more consistent that scaled jackets. Once they are clean the effect of polishing seems to reduce the amount of swaging lubricant required. Polishing will problably assist those using mized batches of jacket material (i.e. mixed brands of cases) by making the surface finish more consistent across the batch. Given I'm using commercially available jackets already batched, I don't see the need to do any more than ensure they are clean inside and out. Shooters have reported muzzle velocity ES 1/3rd that of the equivalent popular US made long range target/hunting/tactical projectile; and a difference of only 0.009 seconds in TOF over 500m for a 10-shot string. I'm more than happy with that.

[Lizard333]

Dropping your freshly annealed cases into a bucket of water with citric acid will remove the scale. Those of you that try to tumble your jackets with only SS media will probably never do it again. The 45 minutes you take to remove your pins from being stuck in your jackets will pretty much cure that urge.

I think some are over thinking this product. Your using a 22LR piece of brass as a jacket. They are not, nor will not, be a match grade ammo. You want match grade ammo, buy commercial jackets. Look at the last postal match BT put on. I can shoot 1/4 inch groups with my bullets using commercial jackets or better. Not even close to that with 22LR brass.

[fredj338]

Dropping your freshly annealed cases into a bucket of water with citric acid will remove the scale. Those of you that try to tumble your jackets with only SS media will probably never do it again. The 45 minutes you take to remove your pins from being stuck in your jackets will pretty much cure that urge.

I think some are over thinking this product. Your using a 22LR piece of brass as a jacket. They are not, nor will not, be a match grade ammo. You want match grade ammo, buy commercial jackets. Look at the last postal match BT put on. I can shoot 1/4 inch groups with my bullets using commercial jackets or better. Not even close to that with 22LR brass.

I am just getting into this swaging game, having fun so far. I am using 22 media to polish annealed jackets, works fine, any pins left pretty much fall out when the cases are dry & you just shake them around a bit in box. It does leave the jackets nicely finished for final forming. So what is the best way to remove the lube after final point forming? Is a bath in acetone or such enough?

[Reload3006]

a lot of people ultrasonic clean them again. I wash them in MEK if you use MEK make sure to use barrier gloves and the proper PPE. But MEK will get all the oils off the brass and it make for a very good bullet. I do the same even with commercial jackets.