About to give up on trying to shoot cast in my rifle

[OnHoPr]

Fugowii, 5744 can be a finicky powder to use. Since you have loaded for the 06 before and you are using a slightly softer boolit. Don't you have any other powders in the 4064 to 4831 to try. If so, try loading with one or a couple of those type of powders in the 30K psi to 35K psi range. You may see a big difference.

[Ben]

There is a lot of cast bullet data out there that won't produce ammo accurate enough to hit a barn.

Just because you've got the data out of a book or off the net means little.

We have come to a point where were read something that was produced by someone with a computer and a keyboard and assume it is the gospel. BEST BEWARE ! ! !

Proven data from true, experienced cast bullet shooters will often get you much quicker results when searching for an accurate load.

By the way, there are many people here on this forum that fit the bill and are very willing to help.

Ben

[Char-Gar]

A Rem 700 in 30-06. Tried 311291 and 311284 with various loads of 5744. Sized to .310". Butted the boolits right up against the lands. It's like shooting a musket ball out at 100 yards. I can barely keep the rounds on target (2'x3'). Only one question: Would sizing them larger, to say .311", make much of a difference?

Thanks,

F

My thoughts on your question

1. Sizing your bullets one thou larger won't reduce a 2 foot by 3 foot group to anything near accepable. Your problem isn't there.

2. The mentioned bullet are both good tried and proven designs for the 30-06, so your problem isn't there.

3. So where is your problem? Here is my list;

a. Bullets are not properly cast
b. alloy is all wrong
c. crappy lube
d. no gas check
e. wrong powder
f. too much powder

I don't know what your issues are as I am not looking over your shoulder. I have never fired a round of 5744 so I can't comment on how that stuff works. If your bullet are well cast, of ACWW or harder, with a good lube, here is a load that will do well for you and produce good groups. This is conditioned of course on your barrel being free of guilding metal fouling which can act like a file on the bullet as it passes over.

16 to 18 grains of 2400 powder.

2400 powder is a great cast bullet powder IF velocities are kept to no more than 1,800 fps. Above that and problems start to happen. I won't waste your time with the lecture why this is true.

If you want to go above 1.8 K fps, you will need a slower powder like 4895 or one of that family.

When you get above 2 K fps, things start to get more complicated by several fold. You run into the issue of barrel twist and than can eat your lunch. Your Remington will have a 1-10 twist.

For the fellow that wants to shoot his 30-06 at much above 2,000 fps, he should invest in a 1-12 twist barrel or go to a .308 that has that twist from the factory. Some do and some don't.

A Winchester 94 or other 30-30 with a 1-12 twist can be fired at factory level velocity without much problem. Marlins have 1-10 twist barrels.

There really is no reason to run a 30-06 above 1,800 fps with cast bullets. At that level accuracy will be on par with the best jacketed. The accuracy will hold up out to 400-600 yards and game can be killed neatly and cleanly at 200 yards and under. That is about 99% of what we want a rifle to do.

In conclusion....there is no need to back away from cast bullets. You just have to learn what your are doing wrong and then do it right. In the process, be careful whose counsel you take. Lots of stuff in gun publications is nonsense and lots of stuff you read posted on internet boards is also nonsense.

You can take counsel from Ben, Larry Gipson, Bruce B and Waksupi with confidence it is solid stuff. There are others whose names don't immediately pop into my mind. This is not to say that there are not others giving good advice, it is just I don't have the long term experience with them to feel comfortable with the totality of their counsel yet.

Best of luck to you...

[Fugowii]

Again, many many thanks to the responders. I feel energized again and will see this through. I use nothing but cast on my handguns and I am hoping to do the same with my rifles. With your assistance I can't help but succeed.

3. So where is your problem? Here is my list;

a. Bullets are not properly cast (I have tried both mine and a friends so I think this is OK as his shoots great in his .308)
b. alloy is all wrong (I use a mix of ww. 2% tin, and 25% lino - friends uses w/d ww)
c. crappy lube (Magma lube - possible problem?)
d. no gas check (nope - gas checked)
e. wrong powder (possible problem?)
f. too much powder (possible problem?)

[OnHoPr]

Fugowii, according to an EXcel alloy program that I downloaded from a castboolit post, your alloy is Sn 3.07 - Sb 9.76 - Pb 87.16 = 18.46 BHN, a tad harder than No. 2. Not saying this is your problem, but your alloy should handle a little bit of pressure. At lower velocities like 1700 - 1800 fps you may not get any expansion on those boolits. The w/d ww and your alloy are very similar in BHN, though your alloy probably being a little more brittle and his being a little more tougher. That being, shows a wide spectrum of characteristics for BHN.

[Recluse]

I was on a quest to push the velocity for 30-06. Like Godsteel, I'm a big IMR fan and have been for years.

One thing I found in several months of testing was that when you get into the higher velocities, even the most (seemingly) minute change in component factors can affect your results quite dramatically.

In the following picture, I used 41 grains of IMR 4350, but I used my own custom lube, installed the gas checks using the Lee push through system and lubed the boolits in a Lyman 45 using a sizing .310 so that the boolit was only being lubed.

The alloy is WW water-dropped straight from the mold, gas-checked/sized/lubed on the same day, then stored for three weeks before being loaded. I can shoot groups like this at 100 yards all day long with this load combination.



The following picture shows the same exact bullet, but instead tumble-lubed with my 45/45/10 and the powder charged reduced to 34.0 grains of IMR 4350.



Notice that the point-of-impact with the reduced charge dropped several inches.

In the next picture, I added one more grain of powder, but I used air-cooled WW boolits. You'll note that the group spread out a bit--that's with only one more grain of powder and a slightly less hard boolit.



So I lower the charge to 39 grains, using the same air-cooled boolit and guess what? The group spread out even MORE.



The point is, when chasing higher velocities, it's been my experience that there is a very, very, VERY small margin for variance and/or error in finding YOUR gun's "sweet spot."

I have a stack of targets that reflect significant changes in group size with nothing more changing than the lube. Or the alloy hardness/composition. Or even as little as two grains of powder. I have some targets in which I changed lube AND only reduced powder by ONE grain and the group opened up by several inches.

My advice would be to find a boolit that does best in the gun you're shooting. For me, it happened to be the Lee 200grRN. I tried three different boolits of similar weight, and the Lee design shot best.

Slugging my barrel netted me an optimal size of .309.

So, all boolits became .309, gas-checked the same way and lubed with the same lube. Then I worked up powder loads, even going so far as differentiating by .5 grains. Some argue that half a grain is insignificant and has zero bearing on your group--I have targets, lots of them, that say differently.

Then I worked on seating depth and crimp (not much crimp at all in my bolt-action rifles), and then finally on batches of brass being careful to record how many times each case had been fired before annealing.

Then comes the final and hardest step of all--duplicating your best success, and doing so more than once.

It can absolutely be done, but it is a very lengthy--and often frustrating--process. For me, I enjoy the journey more than the destination, so these kinds of quests are perfect for me. They are never completed in just a few months with me and instead take a long time.

[mpmarty]

I guess I'm just dumb lucky. rifle is a Savage short action bolt w/ 1:10 twist in 308. Boolits were ac ww 175gr out of a lee mold tumble lubed and not sized nor checked. Load was 24gr of 2400 velocity from my rifle was 2250 avg. Lacking a 100 yard range my targets are at 85 yards. Fired five shots and got a four leaf clover with the middle gone. Using a scope off a bench rest I made. I have loaded up to 40gr of 3031 with this boolit and got good results also. Since I've got many pounds of 2400 I quit looking for "the load".

[OnHoPr]

CORRECTION
Fugowii, I have to make a correction to my previous post. When I brought the EXcel program up off of the task bar I noticed that my calculations were with 75% lino and 23% ww. Corrected calculations are 25% lino, 73% ww, and 2% Sn for a 14 BHN. So that is about 4 BHN below the wd / ww. Which might not handle the faster pressure rises of the faster powders. Please excuse.

[Fugowii]

CORRECTION
Fugowii, I have to make a correction to my previous post. When I brought the EXcel program up off of the task bar I noticed that my calculations were with 75% lino and 23% ww. Corrected calculations are 25% lino, 73% ww, and 2% Sn for a 14 BHN. So that is about 4 BHN below the wd / ww. Which might not handle the faster pressure rises of the faster powders. Please excuse.

Good to know. I was using the Cabintree and that is what I was getting. Just shy of #2.

[sledgehammer001]

It took me 10 years to get a CB load I was satisfied with, for my 30-06 Rem 721. Disremember the powder or charge weight, but I had to load them 0.020" into the rifling to get good accuracy. When I found my final load, it was 6 inches at 450 yds. and running right at 1800fps. Lobbed them in but she rang the steel every time. I used Lee's 200gr. GC, cast at 220gr. sized .310", shot through a .308" bore bbl. Oh, and homemade lube. DON'T GIVE UP. ( edit: I used SR7625 powder.)

[leadman]

I have used 5744, but found IMR SR4759 is a much better powder for my uses. I do shoot alot of different 30-06 rifles (have 6 of them).
Most like 19grs of 4759, WLR primer. .310" Lyman 311041, Carnuba Red lube. .002" off the lands. BHN is 13 to 15.
Several of my rifles will shoot sub moa with this combination. One 1903a3 really likes the same load but with 12grs of Unique.

My Savage 110DL will shoot the Lyman 314299 sized .310" heat treated with a large dose of IMR 4350 into sub moa groups at almost 2,600 fps.

I would reduce the 5744 to 18 or 19grs, change lube to Carnuba Red, LBT, etc. and try it again.
Make sure no lead is scraped off the boolit when seating and do not crimp.

[madsenshooter]

Wow, lots of opinions here! I agree with those recommending a slower powder. Both bullets the OP is using have quite a bit of bearing surface. Something I've noted, and remember I'm just a beginner myself, is that when lead blows back on the neck, you've exceeded the yield strength of the alloy. Accuracy may still be semi-acceptable, depending on what one is looking for or expecting.

I was just doing nearly the same thing the OP is doing, but with 4198. Finally noticed the lead blowback on the caseneck and switched to a larger dose of slow burner. 2"groups at best instantly became a sub-1" group out of a 117yr old rifle with a 55 year old eyeball (and not my master eye), doing the iron sight aiming. Quesstimated velocity of 2000fps.

Try starting at 37gr of something that burns in the neighborhood of 4350 and workup. You'll get the velocity you're after and I'll bet things will settle for you accuracy-wise. I've been disgusted and felt like going back to jacketed myself, but someone has to do the experimentation and bust some of these old casting myths!

[Fugowii]

Seriously try 2400, start at 16 grains and work up. Your loads I think are way to hot for the hardness of your boolits. Fit should not be a problem. A buddy of mine shot some cast the other day that were loaded full JB charges. Key holed them all over the target. I could tell by the report he had over loaded them.

I had a good day at the range today. I put together the following loads:

1) 20.0 grs of 5744 with a 311284
2) 20.0 grs of 5744 with a 311291
3) 16.0 grs of 2400 with a 311284

I shot the 5744 loads at both 100 yds and 50 yds. Much better than before. I'm on the target but the groups were still pretty wide (+/- four to five inches) and unpredictable.

I then shot the 2400 @ 100 yds. WoW! I felt like I got my rifle back. Not only did I come in on the target horizontally perfect but I then walked the rifle right into the target center by adjusting the scope. My last three shots (out of a dozen) were dead on the target center about an inch between them (center, left, right). I attribute that more to my shooting than the load.

Have you chrono'ed the 16 grains of 2400 with the 311291? That's next on my agenda, to see how the 311291 shoots with 2400.

Also, is 2400 recommended for reduced loads? Please say yes!

[ShooterAZ]

16 grains of 2400 is a benchmark load for 30-06 and other similar sized cases. I would not reduce it. Try 10-12 grains of Unique next for a more "reduced" load. This load also flat works. You can try increasing the 2400 load by 1/2 grain increments, but your best accuracy will most likely be somewhere between 16-20 grains.

[1874Sharps]

Fugowii,

You may also try thoroughly cleaning your barrel. Some barrels I have shot are very sensitive to fouling (both lead and copper) and accuracy will degrade dramatically with fouling. Curiously, other barrels will tolerate fouling much better without accuracy degradation. Why this is I cannot say, but it is true.

Oh, and a word of encouragement: Hang in there, good groups are out there just waiting for you. The joy (yes, and sometimes a bit of frustration, too) is in the journey. You will find it most satifying when you acheive your goal!

[Fugowii]

16 grains of 2400 is a benchmark load for 30-06 and other similar sized cases. I would not reduce it. Try 10-12 grains of Unique next for a more "reduced" load. This load also flat works. You can try increasing the 2400 load by 1/2 grain increments, but your best accuracy will most likely be somewhere between 16-20 grains.

I wasn't thinking of reducing it. Just wanted to know if it was recommended by the manufacturer for reduced loads. When I looked at the min load in the books it was higher than 16gr.

Fugowii,

You may also try thoroughly cleaning your barrel. Some barrels I have shot are very sensitive to fouling (both lead and copper) and accuracy will degrade dramatically with fouling. Curiously, other barrels will tolerate fouling much better without accuracy degradation. Why this is I cannot say, but it is true.

Oh, and a word of encouragement: Hang in there, good groups are out there just waiting for you. The joy (yes, and sometimes a bit of frustration, too) is in the journey. You will find it most satifying when you acheive your goal!

Thanks for the info. I will keep an eye on it. I must be fortunate though as the barrel is as clean as a whistle. With the GC boolits and sized .310" I haven't had as much as a speck of fouling or leading. I've actually gone the other way a couple of times and not cleaned it to see if a previous 'fouling' would make a difference. (It didn't.)

I am psyched now with the success I had with the 2400 and intend to build on this. Maybe I will go back to the 5744 at some point but right now I see light at the end of the tunnel and it isn't an oncoming train.

[Fugowii]

Lyman 46th lists 18.6gr 2400 under the 311291 at 1635fps from a 24" 30-06 barrel. 19gr under the 311284 gets 1592fps. These are their starting loads, btw.

Thanks. This is why I was asking whether or not the manufacturer 'recommends' this powder for reduced loads as I was shooting with 16.0 gr.

[MtGun44]

As was previously stated, try 10 gr Unique, 13 gr Red Dot or 16 gr 2400.

Bill

[JIMinPHX]

I'd try water dropping about a dozen of your boolits & see if that makes a difference. If accuracy gets worse, then that might indicate that you need more pressure. If it gets better....stick with it.

Try cambering a few rounds & popping them back out without firing them. Then look for damaged noses on the boolits.

Also, just for giggles, try about 3-5 rounds with no gas check, just to see what happens.

Recovering your fired boolits in a soft backstop medium, like crumb rubber might allow you to do an autopsy to look for signs of gas blow by, stripped rifling, or other obvious issues that could suggest an appropriate corrective action.

[jabilli]

Fugowii,



Oh, and a word of encouragement: Hang in there, good groups are out there just waiting for you. The joy (yes, and sometimes a bit of frustration, too) is in the journey. You will find it most satifying when you acheive your goal!

"

I really like 1874Sharps attitude: Part of the enjoying your successful loads derives partly from frustration of loads that don't work out so well. I like to say it in pretty much every hobby I do, and I reword it for each though I can't take credit for being the originator of the thought- The best bullet caster is the one having the most fun.

I've resolved to just simply stick to casting in handgun calibers- After tinkering with different .223 loads, I would still vaporize bullets/ have them pepper the target with fragments, despite having relatively light loads. Rather than being frustrated with this and focusing on the bad, I choose to just enjoy successfully making handgun cartridges that work well.