Convince me that swaging fired-brass into bullet jackets is better than gas checks

[Reload3006]

Thank you for all the great reasons. I had not even considered the polygonal rifling issue. I bought an aftermarket barrel for my Glock for that reason... could have gotten a decent set of swaging dies for less cost. Of course, I do like the full chamber support.

I was being somewhat self-centered in my thoughts on this subject. I was thinking more about turning 45ACP brass into 454 rounds, than about turning 9mm into 40 cal. I hardly ever find free 45ACP brass, and I never see them for sale for less than double what I paid for gas checks.

Lastly, I want to thank you guys for your courtesy. I was a bit worried that I would get a bunch of, "Use the search function!" I did try that of course, and could not find a satisfactory answer.

instead of using 45acp brass for 454 40S&W would be a free choice and readly available and will give you what your looking for.

[runfiverun]

you beat me to it.
i had a sizeable amount of 40 cal range pickup brass and instead of buying a gun i had no use for, i spent the money on the swage set for my 44's which i do have.
i have thought about a 45 point form die and just squeezing the 44's up in it.
change the core weight down 10 grs squeeze in the 44 die and roll the nose over for the acp.
add a 10gr heavier core, leave a little exposed on the 44's nose and finish off in the 45 die for the 45 colt or just hollow point in the 45 die with the same core weight.
once you got the tools it's just a matter of figuring out lengths and weights and order of die use.
mess a couple of bullets up and adjust.

[Sturmcrow]

instead of using 45acp brass for 454 40S&W would be a free choice and readly available and will give you what your looking for.

The only problem with 40 S&W brass is that they are bit short for the heavy bullets I want. They seem to be fine for 45ACP, where the 240gr range is optimal, but I'm looking for more like 300gr or more.

Of course, the downside to those heavy bullets is that even with the big 454 case, I am running out of powder room. I bet these would be great in something like 45-70 or 45-110 where there is plenty of room for smokeless powder. Maybe I really should consider bringing my weight down to 250gr to allow more powder room, free jackets, and just use them as plinkers.

[khamill2000]

Lots of 7.62x39 berdan brass out there. That should get you any weight you want.

[Sasquatch-1]

The only problem with 40 S&W brass is that they are bit short for the heavy bullets I want. They seem to be fine for 45ACP, where the 240gr range is optimal, but I'm looking for more like 300gr or more.

Of course, the downside to those heavy bullets is that even with the big 454 case, I am running out of powder room. I bet these would be great in something like 45-70 or 45-110 where there is plenty of room for smokeless powder. Maybe I really should consider bringing my weight down to 250gr to allow more powder room, free jackets, and just use them as plinkers.

I'm not sure what I am about to say is relevent, but I use the 40 for 44's and have to cut the case in half to be able to fit my semi wadcutter that comes out between 250 and 260 grns. I am sure I could easily produce a 300 grain slug using a full case. Now if you are looking for one of the rounded over softpoint or hollow points this may not work.

[runfiverun]

i have made up to 350 gr bullets for my 445.
i really like the 315 gr ones.
there is some exposed lead but thats mainly because of the hollowpoint.
there is maybe, 1/8th inch exposed at this weight with a flat nose.
one thing that works well is to half swage with a hollow, then swap tips and fully form the flat point.
this leaves a small cavity and a small @ 1/32nd hole in the center these do upset rather well in dirt.

[Baryngyl]

How far down can you swage an annealed brass case?
I was wondering if you could swage a 45acp down to use as the jacket for 458 Win Mag, my book says the 45acp brass is 0.480 across the head and it would need to go to 0.458 that would be 0.022, I think that is a lot more then could easily be done, what do you think?

Thank You
Michael Grace

[DukeInFlorida]

When we are swaging this stuff, the head end, especially the rim, doesn't get bigger. The web is too strong to really push that end of the case outwards much.
The .40's, for example, that I swage into 44 mags and 45 acp's, come out looking like wanna-be boat tails.

On the other hand, when I am pushing 5.7X28 FN brass through the reducing die, to get below .308 diameter, it does require a bright anneal, and the brass comes out to the diameter I need.

Please know that you have to swage REDUCE to a size smaller (by a few thousandths) than the finished size, in order to properly form the point form correctly. The ability of the reducing die to do it's reducing is determined by the amount of work hardening which happens to the brass while being reduced.

Examples:
57X28 FN (.311" max diameter) gets reduced to .305 easily with an anneal as a first step.

Your 458 win mag bullets should end up at .458. Bullet weights are in the 300 grain to 500 grain range. Using a 45 acp case, you'd have enough case volume to get into that range. The body diameter of a 45 acp, above the web is approx. .475", and as you point out the rim is .480". So, you would want to anneal first (brass only, no nickle plated!), and then reduce the case to about .455, prior to final point form. There will be some force to do this .025" reduction, even annealed. It might be easier to do the reduction in two steps, with an anneal in between. The nice thing is that a final reduction die could be built, and tested, and if the pressures are too high for normal swaging, an intermediate die could be quickly built to take the pain out of the process. The case, when reduced, gets longer, therefore preserving most of the case volume (weight potential)

Do-able? Yup. Custom die set? Yup.

Tell BT what you are wanting to get to, and what you want to use as raw material, and he'll design a set to get you there.

[BT Sniper]

How far down can you swage an annealed brass case?
I was wondering if you could swage a 45acp down to use as the jacket for 458 Win Mag, my book says the 45acp brass is 0.480 across the head and it would need to go to 0.458 that would be 0.022, I think that is a lot more then could easily be done, what do you think?

Thank You
Michael Grace

No problem at all. I use 45 ACP allready to make .458 bullets with perfect results. It is actually easier to reduce teh 45ACP then other brass cases simply because teh 45ACP has a thinner web, meanes there is less solid brass to try and reduce. I assume that is because the 45ACP is a lower pressure round then others.

Simple fact is that anythign is possible and reducing teh 45 down to .458 is one of the easier reductions.

I've posted pics of the .458 bullets made from 45ACP here before.

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Here's Brian's thread on the subject of the .458 bullets from 45 acp:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...&highlight=458

You're welcome.

[rbuck351]

For my hand guns I use only cast and have no issues. For my rifles I hunt with I usually use jacketed but I don't shoot enough jacketed to even begin to pay for the swage dies so I use store bought bullets. I would like to have swage dies in a few calibers but I doubt I would ever shoot enough jacketed to break even. I made my own GC makers so the cost of GCs is nil but it would be nice to be able to make my own jacketed bullets if needed.

[Lizard333]

A lot of the guys here do not swage as an economic means to make jacketed bullets. They swage, like myself, to have to the freedom to make a better jacketed bullet than what you can buy from retailers. This also gives you the ability to make a jacketed bullet, despite what the government has to say about it.

[midnight]

I have a jacket maker from Richard Corbin to make .458 jackets from 30-06 or similar cases. I havn't made bullets with it yet because I have no dies but the sample jackets that came with it look great. Should solve the bullet weight problem. You can make some really long jackets from 30-06 brass. Also Richard sends a core seat punch to match the jacket. Now all I need is dies.

Bob

[Sasquatch-1]

For my hand guns I use only cast and have no issues. For my rifles I hunt with I usually use jacketed but I don't shoot enough jacketed to even begin to pay for the swage dies so I use store bought bullets. I would like to have swage dies in a few calibers but I doubt I would ever shoot enough jacketed to break even. I made my own GC makers so the cost of GCs is nil but it would be nice to be able to make my own jacketed bullets if needed.

I was like you for a long time. I thought for the amount of jacketed bullets I shot that I could always buy them. Unitl just recently. I wanted some 240 grn jacketed in .44mag. for my Desert Eagle. I looked on line in all the stores that sell them in my area and all I could find were 180's. They will work in the DE but it prefers the heavier bullet.

That is when I decided to bite the bullet (what ever on the pun) and started looking for the equipment. As you said, I will never recoup the cost of the equipment, but then again, how many wood workers ever recoup their tool cost? You do it for the pleasure. I can also make any weight bullet I wish. I have made some 310 grn and as low as 180 and everything in between using 40 S&W and 10 mm brass. I could probably go well into the 400's with the 10 mm.

I just wish I had done this 30 years ago.

[475AR]

Do not forget that 6.8spc brass can also be used to make super heavyweight boolits also.

[rbuck351]

Yep, I'd like to have swaging dies in 22, 30 and 35 but the $2500/$3000+ it would take to get set up would buy enough bullets to last the rest of my life and the wife would still throw out half or more when I died. Yes, you can make a better bullet than store bought but for me there is such a thing as good enough.

Another fellow on this forum showed me how to make jacketed bullets without using the normal swaging dies. I am currently making a 270gr jacketed bullet for my 41 mag using reloading dies and a push through sizer from 40S&W cases. They are not as pretty as BTs bullets but they do work. I also have a bunch of 35cal made the same way that I'm getting ready to try.

I have been looking at the various dies for about 35 years and the price has always been to much for me to justify. I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of swaging as there are some advantages but unless I can make my own dies it's not for me.

[SquirrelHollow]

A little late to the thread, but his is my reason:


.40 S&W case wrapped around 195 gr pure lead, for .4315" diameter, 275 gr, fired at 2,200-2,400 fps in .444 Marlin.

A gas-checked bullet soft enough to expand like that would have been too soft for the chamber pressures I'm reaching.
But, a gas-checked bullet hard enough to hold up to the chamber pressure would have fragmented upon impact and "trimmed" itself down to a conical projectile with little to no expansion, if it held together at all.

These did shed some weight, but retaining their shape meant for straight-line penetration. (Lowest recovered weight was 138 gr.) None of them veered off course like commercial bullets tend to do.




I've improved my bonding process and modified the alloy since that first test. They retain more weight now.

[MIBULLETS]

SH, those look picture perfect! Without the added bonding, the cores would have poped out of the jackets for sure.

[BT Sniper]

Those do look awsome! The middle one in the lower pic looks great!

BT